Why Power Cables Affect Sound

Why would multi-thousand dollar components come without adequate power cables? In fact, presuming power cables do make a significant difference, why wouldn't a $5-10k amp or pre-amp have just exactly the right power cable for its specific design? Why would a component maker spend so much design and construction effort on a unit and then send it to you with a crappy cable? That would make me wonder where else they are cutting corners.

@david_ten 

Why would multi-thousand dollar components come without adequate power cables?

n80 Good choice of word in 'adequate.' That's exactly what they are: adequate.

That makes less sense than Geoff's explanation that the big buck manufacturers aren't aware of the power cable market. Again, they build their components to the highest of standards, not compromising on anything, but then just sticking an 'adequate' power cord in the box? It just makes no sense at all.

@mrdecibel "but will continue to battle, likely because of manhood issues"

Well that’s a bit trollish too wouldn’t you say?

And while I certainly respect the ability of those who claim exceptional hearing and the ability to be objective through subjective experience it isn’t totally fair for everyone or even anyone to simply trust the individual who claims such talent that is completely immune to the various preconceptions and variances the rest of us have to deal with, psychological or otherwise, but can in no way reproduce it for the skeptic.

No problems at all Geoff. My power cables are awesome. I think the folks that made my gear knew what they were doing. Seems a pity that apparently many of them are in the dark about this cable thing.

Now, having no credibility is a problem. But admitting that you have that problem isn't going to help no matter how many steps are in the program.That ship has sailed.

@geoffkait  said: " Nobody accused them of being stupid. I accused them of being either ignorant of high end cables"

Okay." Ignorant" then. Why buy gear from ignorant manufactures who don't know that a different power cable will make their gear sound better.

"or not wishing to spend money on an expensive power cord that would be replaced anyway."

What? Why in the heck would they care what you do to their component after you buy it? 

" Follow?" 

No! Your explanation is pure nonsense.

"For example, and I have no idea how much the top of the line Pangea power cord costs, but if a high end amp that I purchased came with a Pangea power cord the very first thing I would do is replace it with a real high end power cord."

Bingo! This is probably THE finest explanation of the phenomenon of high end power cords. It basically states that no matter how good the OEM cord is the true audiophile (insert gullible rube there if you wish) is going to change it to something else.

Now I get it. Thank you.

"  The cost of really good power cords would place the amp maker completely out of the market."

That logic does not follow. In a world of $24,000 interconnects and $40,000 speaker cables and $500,000 home audio speakers there is NO SUCH THING as pricing audiophile equipment out of the market.

@mrdecibel "I am in no way being trollish"

You questioned someone’s manhood issues in a thread about power cables. Maybe trollish was the wrong word. But there is a word for it.

"" The rest of us have to deal with " ? Really ? Are you kidding me ?"

No, not at all. This is what you said:

"As a member of the professional audio community, I was always able to get " loaners ", and never imagined anything I heard. None of that psychobabble bs, that what I was hearing is all in my head. And, although I think I am a smart and experienced guy in the 2 channel audio field, I solely rely on my ears"

It sounded to me like you were setting yourself apart. You know, "professional" and loaners always available and "never imagined anything you heard" and above the "psychobabble bs". So if you’re setting yourself above then you have to be above someone right? Like those who disagree with you?

Look, I don’t have any beef with you. Just taking what you’ve said at face value. Sorry if I got it completely wrong.

@mrdecibel : "N80. I am not fond of the power cables your brother in law gave you, but here is an idea."

Actually, you don't know what type of power cords I have.....because I don't know what kind of power cords I have. I presume they are OEM. Which, according to what I've read in this thread means they are sub par. You can't trust AR or Mark Levinson to put decent cords on their stuff.

"Make the change of the power cords, Listen for a few days, and get back to " us " with your findings. This will let all of us know what kind of " listener " you are ?"

That struck me as funny. Sounds like something from a Monty Python skit. "If she floats she is a witch and we will burn her. If she sinks and drowns she's not a witch."

So if I hear a difference then you cable guys are right. If I don't hear a difference then I'm just one of those guys without discriminating perception (a very real possibility I'll admit). The scenario doesn't seem to allow for the possibility that I AM a discriminating hearer and don't hear a difference because the cables simply don't make a difference OR the scenario where I hear a difference but that difference is a product of  my perception bias, which unlike some folks I KNOW that I experience from time to time.

So, technically speaking, this simple test doesn't tell us anything about cables or my hearing discrimination. 

"Actually,don’t do it for me, as I am way past that, but, do it for you, as the experience will be enlightening." 

It could be enlightening, but not necessarily so as I outlined above.

" #1 : You will not do it, nor feel like doing it."

Admittedly that is probably the case. To me, my system sounds remarkable. I'm not really inclined to chase a vaguely defined goal of "better" especially when, for me, that "better" might just be different. Then I'll waste time dithering about which is better without really knowing.

"# 2 : You will do it, but the results might be, you either hear a difference, or you don’t."

Those are indeed the only two possibilities. 

 "# 3 : If you hear differences, you could speak about them here. Or not."

If I do the test I will certainly share my results. But as mentioned above those results might be meaningless since I know I am not immune to perception bias and/or other psychological influences. My results may not be trustworthy and cannot be purely objective. For instance, I know for a fact that the mood I'm in can affect how I perceive and enjoy music. Who would trust the opinion of someone like that?

"I am sure many of you have a " gift " in some area of your life. 2 channel audio is mine."

I honestly do not mean any offense by this at all but there is certainly the possibility that power cable upgrades and other such tuning is for people with the "gift" and not for people who don't. Geoff maintains that high end component makers are not aware of the power cable upgrade market. It seem more probable that they just aren't aware that there is a population of listeners out there who can really tell a difference.

I do not think that I have the "gift". That does not bother me at all. I have found a way to really enjoy music. With my personality if I did have the gift I don't know that I'd ever reach the point where I was just enjoying the music because there is always a new tweak or cable out there.

@mkgus:

" So here I am questioning how in the hell a cable that isn’t even in the signal chain improves the sound"

So far I haven't heard any compelling explanation. Lots of experts and savants with different opinions but no plausible reason for the perceived effect.

PT Barnum was also attributed with the saying "There's a sucker born every minute."

Some say he never said it and attribute it to either one of his rivals or a famous con man. Either way, the shoe fits.

@mkgus: "Just so we’re on the same page, just because there is no plausible explanation doesn’t mean the effect doesn’t exist."

I agree completely.

But lack of a plausible explanation remains a valid reason for questioning the effect. Especially since among observers there is no consensus. So the sky analogy would be more appropriate if you included than some people found it to be a different shade of blue that many if not most people could not see. In that regard lack of plausible explanation takes on more power as a defeater. Not proof, as you say, but still reasonable evidence.

The paradox is that at some level we are talking about a technical phenomenon with no good technical explanation. That is yet another reason to question the effect.

yang_hong, for future reference, when geoffkait says "no offense" you can count on the fact that offense is intended. Also, if he doesn't say "no offense" it is still safe to assume offense is intended.

I wonder about this Romex stuff. My house is 90 years old. We've upgraded some of the wiring but not all. Probably some of what's getting to my amp is knob-and-tube. I'm telling you guys, you need to make the switch....it sounds FANTASTIC.

mrdecibel,

The reference to my old house wiring was intended as humor. Sorry if it fell flat.

But in all seriousness, presuming power cables are an enhancement item, will that still work when your house system is crap? Or maybe it would make more of a difference?

nonoise, what is the actual price for what you consider a good quality aftermarket power cord? If we use that number in place of a thousand dollars are we still framing the argument in a ridiculous fashion?

Are there cords out there that cost more than that? If so, why?

Are there thousand dollar power cords? If so, why? What do you think their happy owners have to say about them? Are they ridiculous? Would you question the validity of their positive assessment of such a cord?

Is there a dollar figure, in your mind, at which point it becomes ridiculous to you? At that point would you be any different from the naysayers?

Edit: A quick Google reveals any number of 1.5 meter power cables for 5 figures. One of them is $22,500. Found a few lower end ones for $5000 to $8,500 for a full 3 meters.

@mrdecibel : " I will avoid and ignore them whenever I can"

That seems disproportionate to the issue at hand. Someone who will never believe in the benefits of power cords may share other mutual beliefs and experiences and may also have something valuable to contribute.

And that also speaks to the brand "naysayer". As well as my question about $22,000 power cords (nonoise). Which, by the way, is not a straw man argument at all. The point I'm trying to make is that there comes a point at which all of us will become naysayers. And while $22,000 is an extreme example, a $500 power cord sounds pretty extreme to the person who looks at the beefy power cord that came with his Mark Levinson amp....at no additional cost.

 And that is not to mention that we could be having this same conversation about little blue decals that we stick behind curtains and pictures on our walls that improve the SQ of our system. I'm sure there is some 'science' behind these as well. I'm sure we would have fervent debate about the nature of that science that would yield no consensus. And there would also be people who say that they can here the difference and that they are reliable in their observations. 

Also, I appreciate your references for affordable aftermarket cords. I will look into them but if you've followed my leap into hi-fi you also know I'm a cheap bast@rd. Heck, my DAC only costs $110. But I will tell you, last night I almost got up and put in a cheap power  cord to my amp. The only thing that stopped me is how much trouble it is. The amp weighs 95 pounds and is on a component stand that can't be moved without pulling the amp all the way out....not to mention the tangle of cords to sort through.

However, I am building built-ins soon and it all has to come out. I'll either do the test then or maybe even try a cord you recommend. I'm not sure that the cheap cord vs OEM cord is a god test. Naysayer that I am I fully believe that a cord with insufficient current flow could affect how an amp operates.

Finally (I'm sure no one has read this far), I do not know who assembled my system; the original owner or an expert adviser. Could have been either. The cousin in question dives real deep into stuff so I would not have put it past him to have done the legwork. 

@elizabeth I am glad to hear you admit that. Especially from someone experienced as you and from one who also, according to your previous posts, is very open minded about tweaks and improvements.

That mirrors my (limited) experience as well.

Now, you may be able to get "in the zone" and very accurately assess SQ differences. I have a much harder time with this unless I am doing immediate A/B testing which usually requires someone to help switching from one source to another. 

I have a much harder time, for instance, listening to a whole song or CD and then listening to it again after a change and being able to quantify what I've heard. I might be able to say there is a difference but have a harder time saying which is better and sometimes even saying what the exact difference is.

Maybe I'll get better. But until then, me doing a cord test is not likely going to be valuable for me or anyone else.

I have a fair working understanding of placebo effect as a physician and as a clinical trials assistant prior to that. 

And I agree with you that the subject is complex. A lot of people are also unaware of the corollary to placebo which is the nocebo effect. It further complicates the whole process.

I also agree that its existence (along with closely related and probably inseparable consideration of psycho-acoustics) is not sufficient to dismiss all arguments regarding SQ issues. And yet, it must be considered and suggesting that it must be considered has nothing to do with self-righteousness or axe -weilding. It is often the elephant in the room that has to be tamed before legitimate and reproducible evidence is put forward.

@geoffkait " Actually, no offense intended, but my impression of Lizzie is that she’s not really Exhibit A of a careful and thorough listener nor is she particularly interested in tweaks"

First, nobody asked. Including me.

Second, of course you meant offense, it is your M.O. It is hard to tell if there is anything more important to you than offending.

Third, it might be just your opinion, but it sounds like this time it is off base. Again.

Fourth, from my few short months here I find her input to be more credible, honest and useful than yours

@admin:

I've had two posts removed that have not exceeded the published guidelines for this site. I have tried to contact support but the link is not functioning. Please contact me via PM to explain deletions so I will know what to avoid in future posts.

@acman3  There has been a lot of thread crapping in this thread. And I'm sure I've probably contributed my fair share. But the post that was removed was neither thread crapping or uncivil....if I remember correctly. 

And quite a few offensive posts have gone....unmoderated.

I have not been able to contact the mods for an explanation.

maritime51 said:

"Avoid engaging a certain Kat and you’ll be fine."

Agreed, but again, the post in question did not even do that. 

I agree with others though. It has run its course and is at an impasse. Time to leave it be.