You were right about adding a sub.
Relieved of having to reproduce very low frequencies, the loudspeaker is now better able to reproduce the higher ones. One of the benefit of subs! The power amplifier is also relieved of the same duty, leaving far more power with lower distortion for the speakers. You’ve heard the benefits afforded by an average sub, wait until you hear a great one. No offence intended! |
do you have the ability to vary the location of the sub? If you can move it 8-9 feet closer to the listening position than the mains, or time delay the mains, the timing / phase relationship can be carefully optimized. Once that's dialed in I think you'll be startled by how seamlessly the sub integrates with the mains. absolutely terrific write up here: http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm |
Bdp24, no offense taken. What sub do you recommend? I've read about Rel but never heard one personally. Srosenberg, I'll check the article out. I don't have a way to move the sub closer without losing the ability to cut frequencies from the mains. I'm using speaker level inputs. I do have a wireless subwoofer rec/transmitter that gives me the ability to place the sub wherever, but taking the load off the mains seems to have made the most difference in sound, or it seems that way. Shadorne, I had B&W 801s3 in the room years ago. Don't know if a sub would have helped- never tried it. Again, my biggest gain has been midrange and treble clarity. Thanks for your input/ guidance. Gary |
I’ve had a few pretty good subs, including an early HSU (in a cylinder enclosure, similar to your SVS), a KEF B-139 driver (the one Dave Wilson used in his original WAMM) in a transmission-line, and the bass columns of the Infinity RS-1b loudspeaker (six 8" servo-feedback controlled woofers per side) I used to own. I now have a pair of Rythmik F15HP subs (each containing a 15" servo-feedback controlled woofer and 600w amp), as well as the very unique Rythmik Audio/GR Research OB/Dipole sub, which is not for everyone. Rythmik is becoming popular with Maggie owners, they’re that good. I also have a pair of Magneplanar Tympani T-IV’s, which have two 16" x 6’ panels per side just for bass! They produce a very different kind of bass than boxed subs do (leaner, very "percussive". They do drums better than anything else I have ever heard), and were a favorite of Harry Pearson. If you want to stick with SVS, their SB13 Ultra (13" driver in a sealed enclosure) is a great sub, priced at $1600. SVS has just introduced the SB16 Ultra, so used SB13’s are popping up. |
it's been my experience that high passing the mains has a tremendous effect on the entire frequency range and is absolutely my preferred method of integrating a sub (rather than playing the mains full range and bringing the sub in at the roll off point of the mains). getting the timing / phase relationship right via careful placement of the sub or time delaying the mains will make the integration absolutely seamless. when it's right, everything just snaps into focus and the sub completely disappears. |
If you want to play with delay/timing between your mains and a sub, I'd suggest a digital crossover. I mess about with a Behringer DCX2496...variable timing, slopes, types, points, whatever boats your floats.... Inexpensive, too. Yes, I know...it may not have any 'pedigree' by the cognoscenti, but It Works. "OMG, it's 'digital'! It Must screw up analogue!" Oh, get real, y'all....unless you've been living under a rock and Everything you listen to is ancient vinyl, digital is pretty much the gorilla in the room. But, I'm not addicted to dead white Euro composers, either. Nor do I believe that my 'system' needs to rival the price of the average condo to please me.... MHO...and everything I know is 'wrong'. Doomed to 'audio hell'. Oh, well...I know the bouncer, he lets everyone in anyway....*L* |
I could not be more thrilled with my pair of Vandersteen 2Wq subs with battery-biased crossovers. They have the same effects listed by the o.p., and are totally transparent and they blend seemlessly with my mains. When you get that ---- eating grin on your face while listening, you tend not to want to change a thing! |
I appreciate everyone's comments. The Sound Cylinder sounds pretty good in the blend- but I'm still dialing it in. My aging Mirage dual 8" sub sounds great in my bedroom system. I've been reading up on subs designed primarily for music and I'm likely to go for something to replace the Svs, and return it to my home theater setup. Vandersteen and Rythmik are interesting to me. Of course Rel and Jl Audio are popular. I like the option to cut the low end frequencies to my mains. I think I may be limited to speaker level connections to accomplish this, since my Integrated does not have an amp in option- but it does have pre-out jacks. Avsjerry- I like the opportunity of the Behringer - but it is way beyond my level of expertise. There is probably a way to cut frequencies to my mains without using speaker level inputs. Once I get close to deciding on a model, I'll call and try to educate myself. Such a great hobby! My girlfriend is getting more and more interested in audio and seems to increasingly enjoy music. Thanks again! |
A great way to high-pass filter your mains is to install a single capacitor at the input of the power amp (or power amp section of an integrated). The value of the capacitor determines the corner frequency of the filter (3dB down point), and the roll-off rate will be 6dB/octave (1st order). The formula for frequency versus capacitor value can be found on the net, and includes the power amp's input impedance. |
Bdp24, I assume the capacitor would be installed inside the Integrated, since my unit has no 'amplifier in' jacks. I do have pre out jacks, fwiw. Unfortunately, my modding skills are um...well... I don't have any! I do need to learn different ways to accomplish cutting the low frequencies from my mains so the subwoofer setup I buy does the trick. It's surprising to me how big a difference it makes to my speakers. I thought 225 wpc was plenty to power the main full range and then blend the sub at the bottom. Currently, with speaker level connections and the sub crossed about 50-60, I feel like I have totally new speakers. Biggest change is increased detail, or at least the illusion. Either way, I'm happy with the improvement. Wish I had some of you guys wisdom and aptitude for audio- I sincerely appreciate your input, etc. Best Holiday wishes, gary |
Bondmap, What a great feeling! I'm loving it but feel like the right sub would give me a little more mid bass definition and taughtness. I own a dspeaker sub processor that may help but it's still in my home theater setup. Can't use it with the speaker wire connections I'm using. I've owned Vandersteen 2ce sigs and think highly of the brand. The Vandersteen sub is on my list. Thanks, gary |
uncledemp: I hope I can ad something here. What are your room dimensions? Is your room treated? I own Usher speakers. I still have a pair of BE-718s...I replaced them with Tiny Dancer Mini One Diamonds. My room is rather small, but pretty well treated, and everything positioned (through hours & hours ) of listening. I use two Martin Logan Depth i. ............. |
uncledemp: Something to consider after everything else?? (I have a pair of Martin Logan Grotto's I bought new, just sitting around, never going to be used. I have a pair of like new Auralex Subdudes that go with it. Maybe more things you may like??) These subs are adorned with most necessary adjustments needed. Cheers |
uncledemp: I've tried several times throughout the years and many system configurations.. the speaker level outputs/vs/line level.. I've always used line level. In my experience, it has been a night & day difference. Others may differ. I know Mapleshade's Pierre Spray does. In my experience, sub placement is critical not only to achieve best integrated bass but soundstage accuracy. This includes the proper placement of lower bass frequencies, the focus and depth as well. It all works together and in my experience, if one gets the "bass right" everything else comes into focus. I can move my subs as little as 1/4" and notice a difference in my dedicated music room. |
Slaw, good feedback, thanks. With my current setup I can't cut freqs using line level inputs. I own a preamp and tube monos that would let me try it out- at some point I'll switch the gear around. Are you cutting low freqs to your Ushers, or running them full range and blending the sub at the bottom? Regards, gary |
Uncledemp I happened to see your comment. had B&W 801s3 in the room years ago. Don't know if a sub would have helped- never tried it. fwiw I realize from your post that this is in the past for you now. the boxes on the B&W 801 s3 and s2 are tuned to about 40hz when used as is. When the 801 s2 and s3 are used as designed, with the BAF, they are full range. If curious there is a frequency/impedance graph from B&W England on my virtual system, showing the differences with, and without the BAF on the 801. Image 22. Good luck in your quest. |
Without knowing some of the answers to the questions I posted... (1) What would it take for you to go line-level? (2) What size room? (3) Room acoustical treatments? (4) Thoughts on purchasing a (1) new sub based upon recommendations here vs.a chance on trying (2) with the advice of their log time user at a substantial lower cost? (5)??? |
Slaw, My integrated doesn't have a pre out and amp in. Only pre out. I'm thinking I can use the RCA inputs on the sub if I place the sub between the preamp and amp. With my current setup I don't know another way to cut the low frequencies from my mains unless I use the speaker wire option. If I had amplifier in jacks it would be nice. Regards, gary |
Slaw, My room is 14x18, with the 18' area opening into a foyer/dining room about 14' deep. The room has carpet, heavy drapes, etc. Aside from the opening to the rear, it is open to the kitchen adjacent to the left speaker. I have no specific room treatment currently. I appreciate the offer on the subs. I'm pretty slow moving when it comes to buying, hope you understand. I'm also wanting to use one sub if possible. For the most part, I'm pretty happy with my setup- but feel I could benefit from some extra mid bass definition. Rythmik has a dual 8" sub that is very interesting to me, and may be just what I need. I called Svs and they told me speaker level is my only option to cut low frequencies to my mains. Thanks for all your help, gary |
I have owned many different subwoofers throughout the years. I like the rel theory of running the mains full and blend in the subs even if the mains are full range. I also use jim smiths and others recommendations on placement and settings of the subs. I use usher mini dancer 2 DMD speakers running full range. My dedicated treated room is 26'x16' with a 12' ceiling. My subs sound best near the front corners in front of the corner treatments and toe'd in quite a bit. Good luck |
Gary, the Rythmik F8 (dual 8" woofers) or FM8 (the same, but with a midrange x/o frequency for those wanting not just bass, but also midbass from the sub) at around $850 would be a great choice for your speakers. As for high-filtering your mains, you could consider the First Watt B-4, a reasonably priced (Reno Hi-Fi sells it for a grand I believe) great sounding active x/o offering incredible flexibility in frequency (every 20Hz up to around 1250Hz iirc) and slope (1st/2nd/3rd/4th order-6/12/18/24dB per octave)! Nelson Pass builds it with discrete components, no IC's or OpAmps. |
Bdp24, That's the Rythmik I'm interested in- thanks for the feedback. Seems to be a good fit for my needs. I own a dual 8" Mirage that sounds nice for music in my bedroom system. It blends nicely with some Silver Monitor Audio speakers. I think it would give me many options going forward if I change speakers. I own Silverline Minuets that may mate well with it, too. Thanks again, gary |
rbsteho, I gain a lot of top end definition when I cut the low frequencies from the Ushers. With your suggestion, I'll try running the speakers full range. Did you try the speaker level route with your Ushers? I was surprised at the difference, due to the anthem's 225 wpc, but taking the lows away made a most noticeable difference. Thanks for sharing your experience, gary |
parts-express has some speaker level high pass crossover can put in-line to the main speaker to
filter
out the low
frequency
http://www.parts-express.com/100-hz-high-pass-8-ohm-crossover--266-462?utm_source=google&utm_med... you can lowering the crossover frequency to 50-60 Hz by increase the capacitor value (add a 100-150uf capacitor parallel to the existing one), Than you can use the Integrated Amp pre-out to connect to your sub-woofer line-in. |
Gray, you're most welcome. I had same
experience
like yours when I high passed a pair of MA silver 9, Thiel cs1.5 and cs1.6 with Accuphase e-211
Integrated
and Definitive 15" sub.
Dial in a sub with the main is a very time consuming process, please share your finding I believe it will benefit a lot of us. |
Blessyou, In my set up, the speaker wire route is my only option for cutting low frequencies from my main speakers and routing them to my sub. Doing this improves the sound of my main speakers - but I assume this varies from setup to setup. Opinions differ regarding what is better if you able to choose. Also, some choose to run their speakers full range and blend the sub into the mix where the mains trail off. There are many articles online about this subject, and again, opinions differ. If you have the options, trying each and picking which you like best would be my advice. Disclaimer- I'm far from the most knowledgeable on here. Hope this helps, gary |
