Zu on Zu


I’ve just read through the bottom third of a very, very long and passionate thread here regarding Zu speakers, generally centered around whether or not our designs employ crossover networks or not. After doing this, and with a great deal of restraint not to write you all off or retort “screw ‘em all” (Yes, I try and keep a clean mouth, had the other word there for a bit but on reread... But honestly, I might have to use such words to keep the attention here.)

I feel a nice long ramble coming on but before I open it up full throttle all cross-country like letting it all ride, let me make a few brief points. I also know that in order to accurately communicate we must use technical jargon and it is also evident that the majority I will be communicating with are concept-oriented and likely do not have a fundamental background in loudspeaker design or physics. Very likely you are getting your info from that STD cookbook—how to build iffy loudspeaker by VD. Big mistake if you ask Gene Czerwinski, Lars Nordland, and others that have made loudspeakers their life's work. If you haven’t at least studied Harry F Olson (Hey Lars, Harry was a Swede too, born in the US though, didn’t have your cool accent) and you are posting your opinion as acoustic-physics-based you should stop, do more home work and come back ready to play ball. So, this will be wordy, technical, maybe even problem/proof centric, we’ll see. Yes, this is a pain in my butt, it is a big distraction, the few hours that are going to go into this are stolen from my family and I’m pissed about it. If this were during the work day I would still be pissed because I got better things to do, this is not a real contribution to the art of audio, my contribution should be realized in product and systems, not Q&A. But there is a need and if I let the anti-zu thing go too far it will most certainly hurt revenue and thus the mechanism through which Zu’s ideas are realized. It is also difficult as I do not think in a linear fashion. Ideas are expressed in my mind as if they were on a stage, roughed in concepts seem to just take shape, the various parts interplaying and emerging simultaneously, and I am able to see the problems in my head, work them out virtually. I suck at math generally to say nothing of my English and spelling skills. Going from thought to pounding on this keyboard is like flying along at 170 MPH and then having to slow down for a school zone. I also drop words, sometime complete ideas, hands are always behind. So, read with care, realize this is not what I like doing and feel free to NOT expect more of this blather here. We will however address the wives' tales, misunderstandings and music over at ZuAudio.com. We hope to give the Zu guys some proof support and also hopefully convince some of you ATC and Klipsch onwers to give us a try -- okay, at least respect what we have created. By the way, you ATC guys, I have my one secrete sauce and rebuild tweaks for their very cool 3” dome. It’s three hours per driver, shop rate is $60 / hour. Satisfaction guaranteed. On second thought, I’ll be asked a bunch of questions, let’s come back to this if Zu really is just a fad. I do think that is one of the top 50 drivers of all time. Love the thing.

Cynicism is a good thing. I don’t care if you don’t like the Zu sound, I don’t care if you think you can do it better, I don’t care if you only like to listen to unamplified triangle made from C76200 alloy played only at night 100 miles from the closest paved road—I don’t care. But when you armchair engineer my stuff and rag on my customers, and do it with this “I don’t mean to offend” attitude but you really do—ya, this gets to me, at least it did tonight.

There are a ton of things I think Zu should now begin to talk about. Finding the time for such writings will be difficult but we are committed to it. For now I can only briefly address the whole crossover thing. I will come back to it and give it a proper writing with Adam to run proofs and math and to pick up what I let drop. I swear we will do it in the very near future.

Enough all ready. Zu Tone, Druid and Definition loudspeakers do not use a crossover network.

“Crossover”, like “speaker” is short for loudspeaker, is short for “crossover network” as applied to audio. Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary copyright 1996 defines a crossover for audio networks as: An audio circuit device that sorts the impulses received and channels them into high or low-frequency loudspeakers. This is a very non-technical definition but gets the point across. Our full range driver is directly connected to the binding posts with nothing more than cable, designed to reduce reactive loads, from voicecoil to input terminals. There are no devices of any kind between. Simple right? No, many think that the dynamic behavior of the drive unit must be factored in. I agree, the engineer must consider this but it is not part of a defined crossover though must influence a builders selection and execution if a crossover network will be used. Since our driver is an electrodynamic coil-in-static-flux type it has reactive components. These can not be eliminated. We tried many new types of coil windings on our motor, trying to first reduce the inductive rise without sacrificing dynamic range while also looking at how to increase electromagnetic densities. After a lot, or is it alot, of this and that, success and flat out failures, we ended up with a basic down and back, windings on top of former voicecoil. This voicecoil is rather big for a drive unit with a bandwidth of 8.5 octaves in room response, 5/8ths of an inch long and 2 inches wide, immersed in a high density magnetic (B) field uniformly covering the complete coil, static B field density has a practical usable length of 1 inch allowing for linear full coil immersion operation of roughly 1/4”, 1/2” peak to peak. The drawing of the motor assembly resembles a neutral hung design. Consider now that we have a mechanical xmax on the suspension system, spider and surround with a gib factor of about 20 / 80, you can see that our drive unit is quite capable of very high SPL levels, very linear dynamic behavior, reduced inductive rise as the coil only sees a shunt or little static B field at full band power levels in the 100 Watts RMS area. Full bandwidth thermal dissipation capacity on our Zu260FR/G2 is 200 Watts, 400 Watts if used with an active high-pass set at 50 Hz (2nd order) for those of you who might find yourself using them for DJ monitoring. What, none of you are in to the DJ scene, man you really are missing out. A motor, which accounts for all the electromagnetic functions of a driver, must also be modeled with the transducer's intended impedance matching counter part, the thing that couples to the air and that things suspension, and visa versa.

I also noticed that somebody here is a big active crossover fan. Cool. This has real promise and is how everything in pro is done. While the digital technology has finally come around well enough to make decent sound I personally feel that for great texture and tone the main transducer should cover as wide a bandwidth as possible keeping that first crossover point below the modern third octave (64 Hz point give or take a bit). But this really is a completely differnet topic, we are talking about home audio applications, not OzFest stuff where active crossovers and crazy solutions are essential. For this club style party we played at HE2006, we ran our druids with the Crown I-Tech power amps. A two way system with a LR12dB/ at 52 on the Druids, BW6dB/ at 28Hz on our Druid riser subs. The room had a big fat boom in the thwack range. We really lit the system up for DJ Presto at about 2:30 AM, man was that cool, crystal clear, hard hitting sweet sound at concert levels that would make even Gordy Johnson cry!

Speaking of the show. I had this 20 minute talk with a Bose guy. I really wanted to say, but didn’t, hey, what cool stuff have you made anyway, spending ten times the Chinese made product costs on market, get the flip out of my room. Instead I had to listen to his absolute understanding of cone modes and break up. This is why you ain't gnu see anything cool from Bose anytime soom. This is a lead-in really. Here is an actual quote by an earlier blogger’s post: “I too am sure that nothing aphysical can be happening---if only because that would not be allowed by physical laws.” Really, somebody wrote that? Not sure if this was a Zuid or a Zu is a fad guy, either way we can’t think like this. If an anti, say something that sounds kinda good, use the word physics to back you up and move on. That’s a load of crap. First, we humans know little more than that friendly little black ant crawling under your door. Don’t they call ‘em piss ants or something. Really, you take any branch of physics, try and take it down to a fundamental level and see if the whole thing doesn’t fall apart. Yes, Newtonian physics let us get surprisingly close to the average model of many things, let’s us measure and repeat basic stuff. But the further we dig the more we realize we are nothing, understanding virtually nothing on a base level, only knowing how to repeat and model not truly getting the whys of it all. Physical laws are discovered, they do not allow or disallow, they behave in a particular way under particular conditions, understanding being based on the particular way you measured and model the thing. Again, you break stuff down far enough and new models and behavior emerge. The physics student that does not subscribe to absolute will be find himself in a position for discovery and contribution with greater frequency and magnitude. Me, I’m only a physics major drop out, largely self taught in acoustics starting with passion at the age of thirteen. Favorite reading back then was Olson. If a Zu guy said this now you know why I started jumping up and down when I read it.

Physics, it’s super cool. It’s our chosen discipline here at Zu. We hope to add to the knowledge base, not simply follow everyone else’s models. And when it comes to loudspeaker and cable design we want to lead, we intrinsically question others models and proofs, preferring to go it on our own, discovery is still a much bigger fixx than recreation.

Give us a break, we are a bunch of guys that love music and sound just like the rest that post here, bootstrapping our ideas to life. We are just asking for a bit of time to mature, get our communications together, figure out marketing a bit, find ways to get the product in your home for a listen. If you don’t like it, no big deal. But if you are pissed off cause you think you should be where I am, then get busy man. Make it happen.

Look for more at ZuAudio.com in a few weeks. Really, we are committed to the communication of technical assays, if for no other reason than to save our supporters from going crazy here at Audiogon.

I’m tired, need to see my wife, get some lovin, eat breakfast with the kids -- at home and not at Zu.

Later,

Sean
sean_zucable

Showing 16 responses by macrojack

Rotarius,
If the sound and performance of the product is not enough to qualify it in your mind then you would be better served by a company which specializes in white papers and measurements. One of the things that has impressed me about Zu from the outset is its willingness to provide actual experience rather than dazzling me with technobabble.
I personally believe that Zu exceeds sliced bread in at least four different and important ways and I am preparing a thesis on that very topic to be published in late September. If you would like I can notify you of availibility at that time.
Meanwhile, you should not assume that Zu makes a decent speaker but rather try a pair at home and learn that they make an excellent speaker. Or that they don't. Right now you lack data.
Stylinlp_38,
I think you're right about there not being much info on the Zu website. The way I dealt with that was to call Zu and ask questions. It so happened that Sean answered the phone. I found instant rapport with him and now count him as a friend. Since I'm within driving distance, I travelled to Ogden to hear for myself but, if I were farther away, I would have taken them up on their money back trial offer. They've shipped everything FedEx ground that I have received so far and the one way shipping charge for both my Druids was only $40. If anyone out there is considering this option, give Zu a call and they will give you a firm quote on one way shipping. These guys do not mess around with service at all. They are loose as hell in their personal interaction but the business end is as professional as anything you will ever encounter.
Speaking of Zu......
This might be of interest to some of you......

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/rave/rave.html
Kana813-
The reason for discussion about shipping info is Zu's money back guarantee. If you buy a pair and elect not to keep them, then you will be responsible for return freight. Therefore, shipping info determines the amount of risk involved since there is no restocking fee.
I don't know of a source for independant measurement. Perhaps that sort of thing is meaningful but not to me. I think that actually tasting the food will be more revealing than reading the recipe.
Your post hints that you might be in Hawaii and I can imagine that the shipping risk is a good bit higher to your island than what we face on the mainland. Perhaps, by contacting Zu you can find out if anyone in your area has a pair you can audition. Zu owners are usually pretty open to sharing.
Aktchi-
I would have liked to see what the setup sounded like but I'm sure I couldn't handle more than 5 or 10 minutes of it myself. A high percentage of us audiophiles are refugees from a time past and I speak for myself when I say that. Zu wants to engage younger people and perhaps bridge the generational gap that threatens to kill this industry along with the diminishing number of us dinosaurs who presently support it. I too applaud their effort.
The only credibility problem I had with the piece concerned the "busload of hot ladies from Utah". Utah? Hot ladies? Huh?
Atmasphere -
Thanks, Ralph. It really helps to have input from someone with your credibility. The rest of us have had the same experience and results with Zu but for reasons unknown we fail to penetrate the skepticism of some readers. Maybe they'll listen to you.
Aktchi,
Your persecution is imaginary. I was one of the people who responded to you.
I attempted repeatedly to provide you with suggestions by which you could reach your apparent goal. An example would be my suggestion that if Zu's website wasn't providing what you felt you needed in the way of information, a call to the factory certainly would. Did you make that call?
The other example you cite concerns the external finish of the speakers. Again, tell Zu. Complaining to us will not fix that for you. Mentioning it once is fine but maintaining it as a talking point in your list of Zu shortcomings is not an outcome based pursuit.
The fact that Zu doesn't make a speaker at a particular price point is silly. Mass production, mass marketed, mass appeal products make sure no dollar amount is neglected. Artists do not behave that way. Van Gogh really missed the boat by not painting any 18 x 24 inch landscapes, don't you think? Look what kind of music we got when musicians focused on the 3 minute song.
Your arguments about the semantics involved in Zu's product description were pushed to the point of lunacy. All that matters is that we understand what they are selling and how it works. Phil explained it for all repeatedly in an exhaustive fashion and the rest of us tried repeatedly to soothe your vocabulary issues. The breaking point resulted when frustration overtook everyone involved. From my position it appeared that you did not particularly care to be informed or reassured but rather wanted to diminish the company and/or its products for failing to adhere to arbitrary specifics in language which you felt qualified to impose.
Help was, and is, there for you if you want to move forward but I don't think Zu people are the sort to voluntarily retreat.
Tvad-
You shot wide again. Would you criticize Yo Yo Ma for not playing guitar? Guitar is very popular and its included in most of the music I buy. Should B.B. King include RAP in his repertoire just because there is a demand?
Even Wilson, who you seem to adore, provided only two widely spread prices when they were Zu's age. And even today they don't provide any options in your specific price range, do they? Why do you guys insist that Zu should do so?
By the way, I've heard that the new speaker will be much closer to the Definition in price than to the Druid.
Another thing to consider if you really do have an interest in owning Zu, is that you will no longer need big power for Defs. If you were to sell off your amp and preamp and move to a small integrated as I did, you could allocate that much more cash for a speaker upgrade.
Sorry guys. There is a caveat to my last post. You've heard this before so let me just remind you that you need a listening distance of 10 feet with those Definitions. They are not physically large but they do impose a minimum on room size because of the focus necessary for their coherent delivery.
Here's a bulletin from the Zu marketing dept:

As was stated above Zu does not build to price points. A speaker is targeted, built, evaluated and modified repeatedly. This can take a very long time and lead almost anywhere. The final product is then priced according to the dictates provided by our accountant. You are unlikely to notice a structure or pattern in our speaker line ascendecy. Silly, huh?

In reality I have no professional affiliation with Zu at this time although I have applied for a job as company flyswatter.
Tvad-
I may have confused you with Aktchi as the one who was more or less demanding a sub $5000 dollar pair of Zus. If so, you have my profound apology. That must have seemed cruel.
$7K is the number I was told also. And about 25Hz. And maybe December.
Rainbows follow me everywhere I go and, you know what, I feel us growing closer.

Ain't life swell? Can't wait until you get your Zu speakers.
Tvad-
Too true. Communication is poor here and I'm guilty this time of seeing something other than what you wrote. It drives me nuts when others do it to me so I must apologize.

The Defs are $9K and the Druids $2800. The new speaker (whose name I can't recall) is probably going to drop in around $7K but I'm not sure that decision is final.

Since we have established that I get things wrong sometimes, let me clear up some other possibly incorrect notions I've been harboring.
I was under the impression that you simply did not like the Zu sound and were not interested. I just reread your comments to Warrenh above and feel pretty confident that I got that right. You further say that you have an invitation to go to someone's home (presumably in your area) to hear them at their best but won't bother because what you heard at shows convinced you that the Zu sound is not for you. Fair enough. What I don't understand is why you think a Zu speaker at your requested price point will suit you better. I feel pretty certain it will carry the Zu sound which you clearly do not enjoy. What are you expecting?

This thread is by Zu and is intended to provide a forum for Zu owners and those who would like to learn from them about these remarkable speakers. It was started by Sean Casey in the wake of controversy when the entire previous thread was summarily expunged due to incivility.

Do you have a question? Or some experience to share? Or an interest in Zu's future? Why do you place yourself so prominently in our midst? It seems clear that you already have enough information about and experience with Zu products to eliminate them from consideration. Do you wish to dissuade others from pursuing Zu? Why would you want to do that?

Yes, I know you have every right to be here. What confounds me is your reason for being here.
Hwy-
You speak with forked tongue in cheek. I agree with some of what you say. Being one of the zealots to whom you so reverently refer, I can't deny being over the top. The area where I disagree is your comment that we assail any and every dissenting voter.
If you read the comments that draw fire, you will notice that they are frequently observations eminating from people who are completely unfamiliar with the speakers but make cavalier incorrect assumptions nonetheless. An example:

Isn't the Zu best setup with a low watt/single ended tube amp? How many of us are interested in low watt tube? So this speaker is geared toward a specific customer. Sure its not limited to single ended, but its IDEAL for low watt tube.
Bartokfan (Threads | Answers)

When I saw this, I hastened to squelch such an inaccurate statement before it circulated too much. Typical dealership marketing has the benefit of resident experts in the form of salesmen. Whether or not they are experts is a topic for another thread. Nonetheless, they provide an authoritative source for dissemination of (hopefully) accurate factory info. Zu isn't using that resource so us Zuists take it upon ourselves to try and keep the record straight.

Personally, I don't care if you think Zu has a crossover but I would like to preserve the claim that no crossover shenanigans take place within a very broad midband. It's a talking point which is factually accurate whether or not it coincides with certain interpretations of the term.
In another entry I pointed out that my Dad says he's bald but I can see that he still has a couple of stray hairs. Should I call him a liar? And how would he feel if I did?
Sometimes small details are better left small.

And, finally, please note the distinction between someone who is experienced and someone who is expert.

All in all, I value your contributions.
883dave-
Please reread -- SLOWLY -- the passage you captured from Phil's post. It says rather specifically that many audiophiles
do not know the sound of live unamplified musical instruments. I have no idea if he is correct in that but I can tell you emphatically that your name was not mentioned. I guess he might have pointed at you while he was typing but I didn't see him do it. He further suggested that we assume the statement does not apply to any of us. And you are able to find a personal insult in that? How?
Bartokfan-
No! The Zu speakers are not best set up with any specific amplifier type however your choice of amplifier will play heavily with the results you achieve. Hence, amplifier selection affords an excellent opportunity to manipulate the results to suit yourself.
I can't answer your question concerning how many of us are interested in low watt tube amps but I think my comments above address the significance of that query.
I have Zu Druids and I felt that the ASL Orchid I used and still have was underpowered at 3.2 watts per channel. It sounded very nice but wouldn't "up and boogie" with the Druids the way my other amps do. I get very nice results with an Onix SP-3 at 38 watts and a Pass Aleph 30 at 30 watts. Zu ran 400 watts into the Druids at their recent RAVE party in L.A. So I think that kills your notion that there is any ideal type of amplification or amplifier power rating for Zu speakers. They are much more versatile than most and certainly not limited in their appeal to anyone with sufficient curiosity to explore their possibilities.
The way your post was worded, I'm not sure if you were asking or telling but in either event you were misinformed.
I've had my speakers for about 6 months at this point and have explored their capabilities fairly comprehensively. One area where I have not pursued their limits is in the area of SPL capability. It does not take much input to make them play very loud. They certainly will exceed my upper threshold without breaking up at all. You would never guess to look at them that they perform as large as they do.
On the other hand, however, they have a very complete sound at low listening levels. All the speakers I've ever owned in the past needed to be brought to life at a certain decibel level and these do not. Their delivery is well balanced and easy and natural from a whisper to ear bleed pressure.
I'm providing a comprehensive answer here because there appear to be a lot of misconceptions about Zu. There is nothing complicated, difficult or specialized about them. They are speakers, just like yours are. The difference lies in how they do what they do. And this must be experienced to be understood. Please do yourself a favor and find out about them for yourself. This rumor mill is potentially damaging to a small, innovative and sincere company. All I'm asking is that you know whereof you speak before contributing to the confusion with unfounded speculation and imaginary shortcomings. Thanks.

Tom
Drubin - I don't understand why some people are slower to pick up on Zu than others but I have a theory.
If you start listening for what you have already accepted as "right" and hear something different, it may take some time for you to recognize that the experience you carry in your "right" file maybe isn't as right as you thought.
I suppose this theory sounds arrogant and I do not offer it to offend. All I am saying is that you don't know when you're half way into the forest until you've been all the way through. Perhaps the people who pick up on Zu (or other innovations) fastest are the ones who are most open-minded.
They say that the guy who says he can and the guy who says he can't are both right.