preamp vs. no-preamp

I have talked a lot about this subject in other threads. The inherent problem is that whatever parts ANY CDP is using to control its output/volume is not as good as a the parts in world class preamp that does the same thing.

It's like asking the question as to why should one go with a seperate preamp and amp when an integrated amp does the same thing. Yes I will admit their are world class integrated amps... HOWEVER, a well matched world class amp and preamp will beat a world class integrated amp any day of the week sonically. In this case though, a lot of the reason amp/preamp combo beats integrateds occurs because of isolation issues between low level signals and high level signals.

The problem is that too many CDPs that control volume use a kind of passive preamplification to do this. Basically most of them put out ungodly high outputs at full throttle/volume, and this signal is run through some passive preamplification (usually a type of metal filament technology) that contol it by the .5 db. I used to have a Camelot Uther DAC/digital preamp, and my sound dramatically improved when I moved to an active SF3SE preamp and having the Uther at max output.

KF

My experiences are exactly oppostie of Keith's, I have tried a few pre amps and always found running direct to be better. I in fact did use a CJ Art series I and compared it running direct and both I and the other audiophile listening agreed the CJ colored the sound and lost a LOT of detail/resolution not to mention having a MUCH higher noise floor. I have tried a BAT VK-30se and found there was NO comparison between the two, the passive attenuation of the Capitole was leaps and bounds better. Other pre-amps that friends have tried include- BAT VK-50se, Aesthetix IO signature with dual power supply, Manley Steelhead, Lamm L1 and L2, Edge it just doesn't seem to matter most prefer it run direct. For that matter the best digital playback I have heard ALWAYS uses a passive attenuation of some sort be it in the CD player or an external along the lines of the placette. Any other thoughts on this subject? this really seems unusual that Keith and I would have exact opposite point of views. My only concern that I have right now is I would like more body/weight in my vocals and a slightly larger sound stage- would an active pre help this??? I doubt it- more room treatment, power cords or maybe a new amp is on my docket.

Tireguy, I am not going to claim I am always right. And I have not heard your CDP though I have heard AMAZING things about it. And if you have tried all of those preamps, all I can say is WOWSERS! I wish I were so lucky!

Maybe you have a magical kind of synergy between your CDP and your amp? I am not familiar with either piece.

If you want more body weight and a larger soundstage here is what I suggest getting: Virtual Dynamics Nite AC cord and Nite ICs. The combination is pretty frightening... The only thing I have to say about the Nite AC cord is it just is not fair that AC cords can make as big of a difference as it does in any given system. Especially when put on the Amp and Digital Source. It just is not fair.... The IC's are very good... They may not be absolutely neutral (my verdict is still out on them), but they initially impress me a whole heck of a lot.

KF

KF- If you are not famaliar with Jena Labs and are still searching for the holy grail-in cables- you owe it to yourself to try them. Me, along with everyone else I know who uses these cables feels we are off the upgrade path- yes they are that good! I am skeptic that new cables would help, I am leaning towards pointing the finger at the room/amp. I have heard 5 different Capitole mkII's in different systems and they all seem the same(I surely didn't accomplish all of this comparison at my place :) ran direct, the VK-500 is the cheapest amp that I know anyone is using with a capitole MkII- I don't think I should be bragging about that though!

I am also going try a few PC's before an amp swap, I currently use the Jena Labs 7 strainders and think they are really good but I want to get an Elrod EPS signature 2 and a Shunyata Anaconda on the capitole to see if it will truly give me what I want prior to biting off more then I care to chew :)

It is possible that synergy is the factor at hand- one only knows why our systems all sound so different! Cheers and happy listening ~Tim

I just checkout the Jena Labs website and they look interesting. Both Jena Labs and Virtual Dynamics cryogenically treat their cables. This gives them an edge over most cable companies. Maybe one day I will compare the VD Nite with Jena Labs cables. My verdict is still out on the VD IC's (I just sent a long run to VD for retermination), so I am back to my old Nordost QF... However, I would HIGHLY recommend the VD Nite power cords. Do a search here and AA and the only potential negative comment I have found about these VD Nite cords is their steep retail price ($1500, but can be had for nearly 1/3 on the used market).

The guy I bought mine from was a dealer who was unloading all of his VD cables because he could not compete with VD (due to them selling them directly online). Anyway, his opinion was they were the best he has ever heard, and I wholeheartedly agree with him. He had them in his $100k reference system with top of the line Audio Note gear and Nordost Valhalla speaker cables (he thinks the Valhalla are the best speaker cables he has ever heard, he really wants to find something less expensive that comes close or sounds better than the Valhalla). I am not into the Audio Note sound per se, but it is VERY revealing.

One thing about the VD Nite cables (all of them) require ungodly times to break in (500 hours may not be an unreasonable estimate). Many people I think sell these cables before they have not broken them in sufficiently.

Anyway, I would suggest you try an Ayre K-1x preamp with phono, and get yourself into VINYL! The Ayre K-1x maybe one of the best line level and phono preamps ever made combined. There may be slightly (very slightly) better line level preamps out there (for insane $$$ as opposed to the $9k or so the Ayre sells new). There may be slightly (oh so slightly) better SEPARATE phono preamps out there, BUT no preamp on the planet that I have heard or read about (MAYBE the Supratek Cortese, but this has yet to be determined by my ears), has as good of a line level AND phono section. The K-3x (I have it, is pretty darn great), the K-1x is out of this world.

You will find that vinyl with a K-1x will make your digital well... sound... not-so-good. I am an evil man.

Sorry to take this thread off topic. But I must say Ayre preamplification is worth every penny.

KF