Hey something just dawned on me, maybe some of the tube guys have been too long away from ss and maybe same for the ss guys.Come to think of it I haven't listened to a ss amp since that digital amp a few months back and before that at an audio show. Nothing at the show grabbed my attention like the better tube-based systems but you know how show conditions aren't always ideal for such comparisons.
Slappy I'll say this in concurrence with Jim and TWL, not all tube amps sound the same. I sure don't like rolled off highs and that bloated bass and an overly euphonic midrange that renders a sameness to the music, it gets kind of boring listening to music where there is particular character to the presentation. I am not knocking that sound to those that like it I just don't include myself in that group. I have owned a few of them, still have a pair of MC-60's that used to sound more in that direction before I did some mods that eliminated much of that character, got rid of the tube rectifiers and put a SS one in. It made a definite improvement in the bass but it is still a bit too tubey in the mids and the top end is not extended enough for my tastes yet sounds a lot less tubey than some of the less expensive tube designs Ive heard over the past few years. Try to seek out a tube amp based system that doesn't use an output transformer. The Joule is a real thing of beauty, it has that sense of realness that you hear live instruments produce without the bloat and mushiness; you get the harmonics of instruments in their full glory. It takes plenty of speed for an amp to recreate this sense of realism so dont for a minute think they cant. As TWL notes, it is more often the fault of the transformer than any other factor in this area of tube amp performance. This harmonic realism is the one major area that SS has a tough time competing with tubes in my experience. I don't know why this is so and it doesn't seem as apparent to some listeners as others. Some that like ss are more impressed with the dynamics that a big ss amp presents. Some insist that harmonically, ss sounds better or at least the equal of a great tube amp like the Joule, I havent heard one come close. A comparably powered tube amp with some umph in the bottom would necessarily be a quite imposing beast to be sure but some of them can definitely go head to head with ss maybe missing a bit of that hallmark slam that Jiwitns Krell's definitely have.
So the bottom line to this discussion from my perspective is there are tube amps and there are tube amps, there are ss amps and I suppose there are better ss amps, the best of the current crop I havent listened to in a suitable well set-up system. The best of each may be closer to each other than we realize taking into consideration the speakers they will be used with and the rest of the system. The problem for me is I havent heard a SS amp that offers that harmonic realism that is so important to me. Maybe its out there awaiting my discovery and amazement at finding it. Or maybe no ss device can replicate what tubes do so very well which may not be important to other listeners. I try to make sense out of this ongoing debate but there is no sense to it. It seems to me, all said and done that we each hear differently and have different priorities as to what is most important in the reproduction of music otherwise things would be a lot more obvious than they are and this thread wouldnt continue to reappear in different guises as often as it does.
Per Marco request - As a base of reference for my above comments I have listened extensively to ss amps the likes of Krell, Threshold (owned one of those), Mark Levinson, Parasound, Adcom, ARC, Forte, and Bryston. I have listened over the years to products from Pass, Gryphon, McCormack, Halcro (after 10 minutes of this system I started getting bored, what's the fuss about? Set-up I suppose) and several others I can't remember.
My favorite ss amps to date were the Threshold SA-1's which I loved and the Pass Aelph. The rest of the systems with the above components didn't move me at all except an Apogee/Adcom system from years back. Great tube systems always take hold of the emotions conveyed by music in a way that eludes SS in my experience. To me the issue isn't tubes versus SS but musical involvement. Maybe some day a SS amp will have my name on it. If it comes around, I'll buy it.
Slappy I'll say this in concurrence with Jim and TWL, not all tube amps sound the same. I sure don't like rolled off highs and that bloated bass and an overly euphonic midrange that renders a sameness to the music, it gets kind of boring listening to music where there is particular character to the presentation. I am not knocking that sound to those that like it I just don't include myself in that group. I have owned a few of them, still have a pair of MC-60's that used to sound more in that direction before I did some mods that eliminated much of that character, got rid of the tube rectifiers and put a SS one in. It made a definite improvement in the bass but it is still a bit too tubey in the mids and the top end is not extended enough for my tastes yet sounds a lot less tubey than some of the less expensive tube designs Ive heard over the past few years. Try to seek out a tube amp based system that doesn't use an output transformer. The Joule is a real thing of beauty, it has that sense of realness that you hear live instruments produce without the bloat and mushiness; you get the harmonics of instruments in their full glory. It takes plenty of speed for an amp to recreate this sense of realism so dont for a minute think they cant. As TWL notes, it is more often the fault of the transformer than any other factor in this area of tube amp performance. This harmonic realism is the one major area that SS has a tough time competing with tubes in my experience. I don't know why this is so and it doesn't seem as apparent to some listeners as others. Some that like ss are more impressed with the dynamics that a big ss amp presents. Some insist that harmonically, ss sounds better or at least the equal of a great tube amp like the Joule, I havent heard one come close. A comparably powered tube amp with some umph in the bottom would necessarily be a quite imposing beast to be sure but some of them can definitely go head to head with ss maybe missing a bit of that hallmark slam that Jiwitns Krell's definitely have.
So the bottom line to this discussion from my perspective is there are tube amps and there are tube amps, there are ss amps and I suppose there are better ss amps, the best of the current crop I havent listened to in a suitable well set-up system. The best of each may be closer to each other than we realize taking into consideration the speakers they will be used with and the rest of the system. The problem for me is I havent heard a SS amp that offers that harmonic realism that is so important to me. Maybe its out there awaiting my discovery and amazement at finding it. Or maybe no ss device can replicate what tubes do so very well which may not be important to other listeners. I try to make sense out of this ongoing debate but there is no sense to it. It seems to me, all said and done that we each hear differently and have different priorities as to what is most important in the reproduction of music otherwise things would be a lot more obvious than they are and this thread wouldnt continue to reappear in different guises as often as it does.
Per Marco request - As a base of reference for my above comments I have listened extensively to ss amps the likes of Krell, Threshold (owned one of those), Mark Levinson, Parasound, Adcom, ARC, Forte, and Bryston. I have listened over the years to products from Pass, Gryphon, McCormack, Halcro (after 10 minutes of this system I started getting bored, what's the fuss about? Set-up I suppose) and several others I can't remember.
My favorite ss amps to date were the Threshold SA-1's which I loved and the Pass Aelph. The rest of the systems with the above components didn't move me at all except an Apogee/Adcom system from years back. Great tube systems always take hold of the emotions conveyed by music in a way that eludes SS in my experience. To me the issue isn't tubes versus SS but musical involvement. Maybe some day a SS amp will have my name on it. If it comes around, I'll buy it.