2. amps-preamps
  3. 1123254379

VAC Ren II, VAC Phi, or ARC Ref 3?

Finally, the two cold solder joints in one of my Rowland 7M amplifiers have been fixed. Just a simple 2 minutes soldering job at home, thanks to a kind live phone consult by Jeff himself. Now the system is back purring like a kitten.
Great say you, but. . . the problem is that now I have fallen totally prey to Upgraditis Furiosa, the most pernicious and 'wife threatening' form of Audiophilia Nervosa.
I listen mostly to classical--lots of chamber, vocal, Early Music, Baroque, Romantic, some large orchestra, lots of cello and other strings--on a system that I have lovingly put together over the last 20 years: EAD T1000, AT&T glass C-core glass wire, EAD D7000 Mk. 3, AudioQuest Quartz RCA, Audio Research LS2B, Gutwire XLR, Jeff Rowland 7M monoblocks, Cardas Golden Ref PCs on 7M, Cardas Golden Ref speakerwires, MagnePan 3A speakers.
The sound is sweet, lush, with a large if slightly unfocused soundstage, sometimes slightly veiled, somewhat soft at the bottom, can sound glorious in the midrange, good if not spectacular at the top. Much better at small ensembles than at full orchestra, where the sound stage can collapse and full strings and brass often display signs of brittleness and two-dimensionality. But, so much for self-criticism. Now what to do?
I intend to migrate towards a fully balanced system, with redbook and SACD capability and a tube linestage. I will start upgrading at the source and linestage points. The source will be an Esoteric X-01 or an upcoming APL NWO-1. But in this thread I'd like to discuss options for a new linestage. My requirements are an open and detailed, sweet sound, accurate with minimal coloration, with very good but not necessarily overwhelming macro-dynamics, an excellent three-dimensional and accurate soundstage, superior microdynamics and subtle nuance. The linestage must sound great out of the box--after breakin of course: not only after going through many cycles of NOS tubes musical chairs. All of this from a company with a stellar track record and reputation in quality, dependability and pre/post sale support. I listened to the VTL 7.5 and found it to be too soft. The BAT VK51SE sounded too dark. Then I listened at length to the VAC Ren II, which seems to embody all of my requirements. I have not heard the VAC Phi as yet, but it is in the running by inference. Nor I have listened to the ARC Ref 3, although I intend to: Ref 3 is in the running by reputation.
Suggestions? Opinions? It's your turn guys and girls!
guidocorona
dgad
782 posts
 
I feel it is time to chime in. I just played around with the tubes in my VTL 7.5. I am actually at a point of loss for now. I changed the 12AU7s for the 12AX7s. Stock Sovteks for both pairs. The 12AX7s give much more gain & better bass & more extended highs than the 12AU7s that I received originally. I purchased the preamp from a gentleman who replaced his ARC Ref 3 with the VTL & had both for sale. He felt the VTL was better than the ARC. He has sold the ARC as well just before he sold the VTL. He had both for sale as he switched to the ASR Basis Emmiter II integrated.

I also heard there was a major update to the ARC Ref 3 since it came out. So I don't know which version he originally had.
It even gets more confusing. I have now too much gain & am missing the warmth of the 12AU7s. I was recommended by VTL to switch back to 12AU7s. Depending on the source will decide which tubes you need. Mine is currently the EMM gear, which is very high output.

Luckily the VTL uses only 2 tubes. The addition of balanced is a very significant benefit & should not be ignored.

On to speaking with the tube rollers out there. They all say it is crazy to spend so much on great equipment & not get NOS tubes. It is like putting small tires on a Porsche. So I am about to purchase some NOS tubes for about $250 or so. Not alot compared to the VTL 7.5. Time will tell. Not even sure if I should buy a few types of tubes for the sake of experimentation.

The sum of my story is the VTL is a little soft w. 12AU7s. Extended at both ends w. the 12AX7s. Both Sovteks (stock inexpensive tubes). Just too much gain w. the 12AX7s. The VTL you heard may have been with a 12AU7s accounting for the softness. For sure it is very very dynamic w. the 12AX7. In the end what is your source will really determine a lot more about the preamps system compatability & what tubes you use.

REmember with only 2 tubes, it makes no sense not to roll tubes. I can understand that have a preamp with a lot of tubes it would be a pain. I am not willing to roll tubes on my amps at this time (maybe the input tubes).

Hope I helped.
fsarc
148 posts
 
Most of the preamps mentioned are state of the art and it will come down to a personal choice, and as previously mentioned, system synergy. While I love the Phi 2.0 I don't think I can it is the "best" preamp out there- we all have our own likes and dislikes. The AR Ref3 and VTL 7.5 were on my short list. The reason I went with the Phi 2.0 was for the system synergy with my Phi 220 monos- luckily it all worked out in the end.

With that said, the VAC Phi series is definitely my choice for the current state of the art in tube amplification- in my system it has no compromises that detract from being truly engaged in the music.
bhouser
112 posts
 
Guido-

You may want to do a bit of research on the characteristics of the tubes used in the designs you are investigating. Here's what I can offer:

The VAC Ren's use 8416 & 12AX7's, while the ARC & SE-series BAT's use the 6H30.

There was only one manufacturer of the NOS 8416's, though Kevin Hayes told me he has access to a reliable stock of over 9,000 of them. So, though you will always be able to get replacement tubes, you'll only be able to tube-roll the 12AX7's.

The 8416 is essentially an updated version of a 6922 with a higher heater voltage, so it has the sonic benefits of what we typically consider the classic tube character as well as excellent dynamics.

The modern, hi-voltage 6H30's in the ARC Ref models and ‘SE’-series BAT’s, while providing the dynamics of a solid-state preamp, seem to also have the reputation as the least 'tubey' sounding of any valve-based preamp. And there is NO tube-rolling possible with a 6H30 - if you don't like the character you get out of the box, too bad.

In my case, the more comments I read about the sonic character of the ARC Ref2MkII & LS-25MkII, BAT VK-51SE and other 6H30-based pre's, the less I wanted them. Why have a tube pre if it doesn't sound like it has tubes? That's what all those nice solid-state pre's are there for.

This will - of course - ultimately come down to individual personal preference and system synergy, and the Ref3 may very well be a totally different animal compared to its predecessors, so I can't help you there.
hifimaniac
507 posts
 
I echo Frank's (FSARC) comments exactly. I can't add anything to his description. He and I have the PHI 2.0 and the VAC 220 Beam Power amplifiers. It is the best of tubes and solid state rolled into one. It isn't a reproduction of the recording you're listening to, you are listening to the musicians in your room. It is amazing. I too am impressed with the build quality, the customer service and especially how incredible my music sounds. For me the voicing of human voicing with Kevin's equipment is dead on. I just wish more dealers had his stuff on display to demo because he would be selling boat loads of his PHI line. I thank my friend everyday for opening my eyes to the world of his equipment. I had listened to the VTL's, my old neighbor's Manley Reference 250's; the Audio Research 600's and enjoyed them, but not enough to sell my solid state until I heard the VAC PHI. I bought it based on Kevin's feeling it was his best effort to date. You'll wait for it to be built, he doesn't whip them out, but perfection takes time and is worth the wait.
guidocorona OP
4,114 posts
 
FSARC, you are making it darn difficult for me to say no to Phi!
No digital readout? No prob, won't use it anyway.
I won't be using LPs, but I understand that part of the tubes in the phono stage are shared with the linestage, so I'm glad the phono is there. Compatibility down the chain is also very important. My amps have input impedance of 22K ohms, which would cause the Phi to purr along like a Cheshire cat.
Have you had the opportunity of comparing it to its Ren II smaller brother? Ren II is a pre I already love: huge soundstage, holographic, detailed, sweet, musical yet never syrupy.
Kevin's stellar reputation in service is also a plus.
Oh yes, have you ever tried to roll tubes? Or is it even advisable on the Phi?
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