What will you be playing to celebrate?

Ahh, Yale? My mistake, I knew it was of them thar skoolz. Papa Bush AND Grandpappy Bush were all in the same society. I thought they were all Free Masons until I saw that 60 Minutes piece on Skull And Bones. Thanks Slipknot!

Mghcanuck, If I were GW I would have followed the path you described. Easy for me to say though because we don't know what they knew at the time, but also kind of spooky when you realize they didn't really know that much and seemed to have made up some stuff to bolster their case against Iraq.

My fear is that Bin Laden had been planning his escape for many years and he was ready for the possible repercussions of a US led invasion. It seems Hussein was also well prepared, but he finally got caught. However, when the White House realized we weren't making the kind of progress we'd hoped for in Afghanistan in regards to catching Bin Laden, maybe due to faulty intelligence, I don't know...that's when we decided to shift the world's and our nation's focus from one Middle East nation to another more "winnable" situation. It just seems that way.

Now let's enjoy the holidays and hopefully by catching that scraggly old fellar there might be a boost in holiday retail sales.

One question. Who the heck are you guys gonna vote for in 2004? I haven't a clue yet. We've had an actor as president and California governor, and an ex pro wrestler as Minnesota governor. Maybe a cast member from Survivor or Queer Eye For The Straight Guy might run.

Gunbei, the attacks on the U.S. on 9/11 were the result of the internal politics of Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden wants to topple the Saudi government and one of his strategies is to show that the U.S., Saudi's greatest ally, is weak and ineffectual. 19 of the 21 hijackers purposely were chosen to be Saudi citizens. This was done to drive a wedge between the U.S. and Saudi and to demonstrate to the Islamic world at large the Saudi's government's lack of legitimacy and popular support. To the extent that one of bin Laden's major goals was the expulsion of U.S. troops from Saudi Arabian, then his strategy has worked. The U.S. is not completely out of Saudi, but it is now the stated goal of the Saudi government to have U.S. forces there reduced to a bare minimum.

BOn jovi: wanted dead or alive!

Onhwy61, I didn't think about that but it definitely sounds like a real possiblity. I'm sure people like Bin Laden would like nothing better to do than to make us look weak in the eyes of the world. Specifically, the Arab World and our Arab allies. I heard a young Arab man say he was glad 9/11 happened because the US finally got a punch in the nose. He was from an Arab country friendly to the US, I forgot which one, but although he admires our culture and people, he is sick of our policy in the Middle East. I've seen this echoed in interviews with young Arab college students from countries that are US allies. This is a very tricky and confusing dynamic.

Bin Laden being exiled from Saudi Arabia might have something to do with him wanting to stir the pot in his ex-homeland. Frankly, I'm more fearful of guys like Mullah Mohammed Omar the ex-head of the Taliban and Ayman Al-Zawahiri who's most likely the real guiding force behind Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

I've seen interviews with people of varying Arab nations who are more afraid of their own government than they are of the US or radicals within the Muslim world. As benign as Saudi Arabia often appears because they're to an extent our ally, I wonder how much this applies to the ruling Saudis and their people. It's hard to imagine this would be the case in Kuwait or Bahrain.

History has shown that politics and who you choose as an ally plays an important part in the survival of your country or kingdom. It's an interesting paradox for the Saudis to have the US as an ally which affords them a great deal of security from their hostile neighbors. But on the flip side having infidel military bases on Muslim soil also causes great consternation. Being a ruler is no fun at all, because you can never make everyone happy. All you can do is to try to survive.

As for the hijackers I may be mistaken, but I thought guys like Mohammed Atta and the others were mostly Egyptian. The curious thing about guys like Atta and some of the other Palestinian suicide bombers is that they weren't radical until they went abroad to study in Europe. There they were recruited by radical clerics and brainwashed into making themselves human missiles.

I've asked my Dad about this kind of thing since he was a pilot in the Japanese Imperial Navy during WWII and how is it that people can be mass mobilized for a cause like this. He and some buddies volunteered for the Naval academy when they were still in high school. At 16 and 17 they were ready to die for Japan. I've heard all these stories how Japanese mothers sent off their boys telling them they should die for the Emperor. It's funny because my Grandmother told my Dad not to do anything stupid and to come back alive. Did I have the one sane WWII Japanese Granny? Hahah. Curiously, my Dad really doesn't have an answer for his youthful zealousness, saying maybe it was just that. But he also doesn't think Japan was wrong either. Have any of my fellow Audiogoners ever wondered what was on the minds of young Germans and Japanese during this period?

There are so many things that contributed to 9/11. And the sad thing is that it might have been avoided if we had just acted more responsibly in the Middle East.

I got an unrealistic extremist idea.

Lets disarm our nukes by dropping em all on the middle east!
Blast that sand to glass!
Then take out a buncha windex and wipe it clean. No streaks, no sheeks

hehehehehe

Just kiddin.

I think it is amazing how well the U.S. connected Bin Laden and Saddam Huseein without really connecting them. A little hint here, a little hint there. Next thing you know 50% of americans believe that Saddam and Bin Laden are comrades.

I see the point of view for both sides. I think saddam had to be dealt with though. You got alot of space out there where WMD can be hidden. They have already found trace elements of chemical weapons, and doing evidence of larger ops, but nothing really concrete.
It might show up yet.

I also have to agree with the idea that the rebuilding contracts SHOULD go to the countrys who supported the invasion. I dont think france or germany should be able to sit there and benefit from this when the whole time they were making escuses for putting this off.

Saddam had what, 10 years to get his act together? and all he gave was crap, lies, and grief. He was responsible for what? 60,000+ dead iraqies? he Chemmed his own damn civilians. I dont care what anyone says, they are better off now than when he was in control.
I think there could have been better planning to rebuild iraq though.

On the other hand, the way i see it, im sick of us spending billions of dollars each year to support other countrys and governments. Concessions are nothing other than bribes and blackmail and seldom fix a problem rather than prolong it.

If it were up to me, the USA would pull ALL of its troops from any country that does not welcome them. We would cut ALL funding to other countrys, its time for them to start wiping thier own asses.
With the money we are spending on foriegn aid, we could feed and shelter OUR homeless, take care of OUR problems.

Let the rest of the world go to hell.

If we wanted the oil in the middle east, the easiest way to do it would be to say "Screw em", pull alll our people out, let them duke it out.

20 years later when everyone on that side of the world had blown eachother to bits and leveled every socioty out there, we could just walk in and take it, nobody would complain. know why? Cause they would have all killed themselves.

Screw em, if they dont want our troops, they dont get our funding. If they dont trade with us we dont trade with them.

We are out there trying to help other people live the life that we enjoy. They dont want it, fine. They dont get it.

let them blow themselves to hell.

Wanna be friends with the USA? Come to us, and be our friend, trade with us, talk with us.

You dont want to be USA's friend? Then fine. You dont get squat. Im sick of my money being taxed and given to some country ive never hgeard of that hates us.
Pull the funding, lets see how fast alot of attitudes change.

Im no politician, obviously, but i think the USA has enough problems of its own. I'm more concerned about the USA Disabled War Vetrans who will be spending xmas in a cardboard box in some alley.

Maybe it is just time for the USA to butt out of all of it. Like china minus the communism.