Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s


Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6
OK, what do you think of this. As you must know, the difference between the sound of musical instruments is mostly in the in the harmonic distortion that they add the fundamental. Varying amounts of energy in the different harmonics give instruments their characteristic sound. Now, since alot of people prefer gear and sources with measurably higher distortion and noise, perhaps the added harmonics are what give different amps what some call a "musical" quality. It just so happens that the kind of distortion tube gear has is mostly in the lower harmonics where it is the most pleasant.
Steve, I just don't get it. You have such great insight and knowlecge like stated above and could offer so much. Then you'll turn around and become a royal pain like the past week on other threads. Why? Isn't it just as easy to provide value. In all honesty, thank-you for the above. J.D.
J.D. Hear,hear! I remember, long, long ago, when TAS was still innocent and without advertisements, HP ruminating on just this point Steve was bringing up, to wit, that tube's "musical superiority" might be the effect of their inherent lower harmonics distortion. : From Steve's statement you could of course infere, that if that is true about tubed gear, then other amps without measurable distortion must perforce sound alike. To out ears they don't. So now we can start to bicker again about the validity of either measurements or the nonvalidity of our imagination. Isn't it getting tedious a bit?
Jade - Sorry if I get a little testy. I have concluded that there is just not enough common ground for believers and non-believers to have useful discussion. Well, actually, I think speakers are an exception to that. Speakers have such enormously high distortion compared to everything else, and almost no specs are provided for them, that we can only sit and listen and believers are certainly as good as anyone at that.

It is the fact that believers refused to allow that psychology is am important factor that makes discussion pointless. Without the willingness to factor this in, it becomes hopeless search for reasons for real differences.

The "amazing" differences people report between line cords, power conditioners, cable conditioners and distribution outlets are absolute proof of the psychology involved. Once one accepts this aspect of the listening phenomenon, then believers and non-believers can argue about things that are at least theoretically possible.
Thank-you Steve, this is what I was hoping for, educated people talking from alternate sides of an issue, with ideas not attacks.
Is it possible then that the line cords, cables and conditioners also play a part in the distortion, thus making it science and not psychology? (wich I find more a science of explaining the unknown than any of them.) Is it possible that isolation devices and footers lower of raise the distortion created through vibration?