2. tech-talk
  3. 984550796

Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s

Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6
stevemj
129 posts
 
Jade - It simply is not possible, no chance, none, zero, nada, ziltch, that line cords, power conditioners outlet distributors or cable conditions (there is a different reason for them) have any effect on fidelity. These things have the same effect on sound as whether or not your car is in the garage.

An amplifier's rectifiers brutalize the AC waveform in the process of using it. Amplifiers are a source of AC line distortion, not a victum of it. Here is an analogy. Let's say you have a compressor and a spray gun. To do a nice job of painting you want the air to flow smoothly to the gun from the tank. So, you go over to where the air enters the compressor and set up a little screen so that any wind drafts around the compressor intake will be reduced.

Its actually even worse than this. If the products altered the AC waveform as they claim it wouldn't make any difference, but they don't even do that.
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,071 posts
 
O.K. Steve, if it's not the power supply and it's effect on the audio signals in our amp. or source (which you did not mention) and the cords, conditioners, etc. are not effecting anything in the signal, than how do you explain the added noise, lost of base definition, lack of sound stage detail and added edginess that occurs when I switch out my cords and conditioner to standard cords from the wall? The difference is not subtle and it is way beyond subtle, this is like a clock radio vs. stereo system. There is with no doubt, and laughably so a difference, how do we explain this? If there is no measurable difference as claimed, then it must have to do with something we are failing to measure. What? I think for anyone to stand and claim there is no difference has to be not willing to except something unknown to them and I don't see you as that person.
If I took your sprayer analogy and went with it, I would think there is a chance the flow would be smoother, more even if the pressure tank was next to the nozzle, thus no resistance to the flow. If my hypothesis is correct then I would assume a wider hose could provide a more stable pressure, thus a more even flow. If the casing is butyl rubber with a potential for small leakage of air vs. a vinyl tube the flow would be that much more stable. By screening the compressor intake and controlling it's environment I believe we will see a more predictable performance. This of course has not been proven by me and I doubt by you either. So here we sit, you claim no possible difference, I claim possible. Neither of us have any more than our own experience and education to prove our theory, but they both make sense. The point is not to begin a thread on air compressor and there effect on paint sprayers, it was and is to draw a comparison as you tried to do.
Now you have told us, often I might add that it is not possible that the power cords, wiring, conditioners, etc. can have an effect because your scope shows no difference. O.K. I'll give you that a scope will not show a difference, but I'm still claiming better sound, as I do with my sprayer giving a better surface. If you measure the compressor there is no difference, and I would bet the pressure at the hose end is the same under measurement. So is the better finish psychological, or have we yet to conduct the proper test? For us both to stop there seems childish at best. If we both really cared, would we not want to continue working together to find out if there is or is not a physical difference. So from my perspective, today we sit like two kids in a sand box, I'm right and your wrong, and visa versa. We can chose to go home and complain about the other kid, and more than likely not play together again, or we could stop and try to figure out what is going on. The claim of audible difference is not just psychological, and science has a way to prove it. To continue it will require you to accept that I hear a tangible, physical, measurable difference and that your interested in helping the rest of us figure out why. So do you want to play, or go home? J.D.
479058's avatar
479058
105 posts
 
JD: "The claim of audible difference is not just psychological, and science has a way to prove it." This is what's known as assuming your conclusion. The claim of audible difference may indeed be "just psychological." Your requirement that Steve accept that you hear "a tangible, physical, measurable difference" makes no sense, since you haven't even demonstrated that there's a measurable difference here, let alone an audible one.
jadem6's avatar
jadem6 OP
1,071 posts
 
That's wrong Jostler. I have now had over ten people come and listen to my system, I've then taken out the cords and conditioner and put in the stock cords ( you can read elsewhere my process that's been said to be overkill). I have had amazement, shock, confusion, smiles, but as of yet not one person who didn't hear a major loss with the stock cords. Now if you chose to ignore my factual proof for your unproven doubt, fine, your entitled to your opinion but please don't participate in this discussion for you add no new value.
stevemj
129 posts
 
Jade - I would be willing to bet you any amount of money (well, say up to $10,000) that you would be unable to hear the difference in line cords in a true double blind experiment. The reason this psychology business is treacherous is that people REALLY do believe they hear a difference. And it isn't that there is something wrong with anyone, its just the way the mind works.

So, try a test where neither you nor the person scoring the test knows which cord is installed. Make sure there is no possible clue as to which cord is connected. See how you do.
More to discover