certin speaker makers harder to get dissounts fro

Cjlcapp, you have clearly touched a nerve! I have wrestled with the ideas at the core of your question for some time. The answer for you will be of course be your own, but it's encouraging to see such differing points offered for consideration. In fact, the emotion displayed in this thread shows that we take this seriously.

On that thought, I offer my own view. Lush, I agree with you. Krelldog, I disagree but I see where you are coming from.

The litmus test for me is found through intention. If your intention is to buy from a brick and mortar, then taking their resources is potentially an equitable transaction. If, however, your intention is to take their resources without buying, you have in fact stolen.

This is obviously a moral thing, and I don't pretend to take the high road easily. Anyone else have the same view?

Douglikesaudio,thank you I have enjoyed reading all of the posts and am learing a little about this game. your litmus test for me is a little harsh. When you say"If, however, your intention is to take their resources without buying, you have in fact stolen." I never would even consider this option. If I hand over my money and the dealer takes it this results in a equitable transaction. Aussming each party has roughly the same knoldge base. I am but a green- horn in this sport, I belive in working for what i want and getting the most for that hard earned dollar. Douglikesaudio I enjoyed your post and hope to read more of your thoughts and that applies to all that have responed. cj

Krelldog,you took the words right out of my mouth,10% is better than nothing.

Lush

here's what make's no sense to me about the dealer's who are unwavering on their price's or your defense of them,when you know the prospective buyer your talking with is a working man who needs to save in order to fund his purchase(like me)wouldnt it be smarter to make that buyer an offer he cant refuse even if it only meant making a 10% profit & gain a customer rather than chance alienating him,people who have to save & i really mean save & not just taking one vacation instead of 3 or putting off new furniture for their vacation home but realy save need to make their cash stretch & if you give them a smoking deal they will be back,instead of taking that approach they keep the price's high & drive that person to buy used leaving them with zip.

im very lucky that i have a great dealer who realizes that i simply cant afford to buy high end gear unless the price's are low enough that when i want to buy something different i can sell my old gear & not loose anything & maybee even put a few buck's in my own pocket instead of loosing a fat wad.

i will never understand the elitest attitude that many dealer's have twords customer's that ask for discount's or beg as you call it nor will i ever understand why people such as you leap to their defense,one thing that i know for sure is that if i had to pay 90% of msrp on the gear i buy i would be limited to midfi gear at best & by the time i saved up enough cash to buy a better 'whatever' the rest of my rig would be obsoulete so what would be the point of even trying to upgrade,i'd call it quit's before i went thru all of that & took huge losses when i sold to upgrade,the same 'starving dealers surely dont give a second's thought to me loosing 50% out of pocket at resale time,is that fair?

when a dealer give's a customer better price's he not only gain's a loyal customer but he gain's a customer that will upgrade more often & spend more in his store because he isnt loosing when he sell's his old gear to buy new but these guy's cant see that far ahead they are only worried about now instead of building a real customer base.

when i first went from midfi gear to the higher dollar gear i was forced due to a severe lack of funds to buy only used gear but after meeting a dealer who was willing to go the long haul with me & not try to make his whole monthly expenses off my single purchase i have been able to spend a lot of cash in his store & i constantly upgrade,also when i do upgrade i never make a move without first giving him the chance for my business.

i think that alot of dealer's have lost their way over the last 10 year's or so & blame their slumping profit's on internet site's & used gear buyer's instead of looking within & try to figure out why they do not have a loyal customer base anymore & it's not home theater either,home theater has become a huge part of high end audio & like it or not any dealer that is to thrive will need to offer these types of products.

last year most dealer's snubbed their nose's at my business & made me offer's like 5 or 10% off & in return they gained 0% of close to 30k worth of my upgrade's & lost me forever as a potential customer while the dealer who i am loyal to profited 15% off of that same business with me & this summer when i upgrade he will profit again.

Cjlcapp,keep on looking bro,sooner or later you WILL find a dealer who wants to have you as a customer & who will give you good deal's,it took me a while but i found one & you will too.

dont take my comments as dealer bashing because they are not & i do believe that dealers can use our business but i dont believe that we should buy from them soley on the basis that they have the gear.

anything less then 20% off is an insult! AudioVisions in Ohio sells Martin Logan and will atleast offer 20% off.

CJ, sorry if the litmus test seemed directed at you. I offer it as a counter to some of the posts above from other responders. Also, you made it clear in your post that you are new to the hobby and trying to figure out how to proceed. I don't like sounding high and mighty here, but there are so many views in the above threads that counter my own experience that I thought it best to offer another side.

In short, to some responders above a key component of "value" is the price they pay relative to MSRP. I suggest that you don't get hung up on that definition of value at such an early stage in this hobby. What I have found is that a really good dealer is worth alot more than they usually charge. Their charge being the difference between what I could pay from the lowest price alternative vs in their store.

Let me give you an example. My local 2channel shop has been in business nearly 40 years and is the last 2channel shop in our metro area. I went in last year to see if he had a Sony SACD player as I was hot to get one. He didn't have one but he acquainted himeself with me and my goals and said I may be interested in another product he carried. I borrowed the piece he suggested for the weekend. I brought it back the following week and ordered one from him that actually cost 3 times more than the loaner. I have since purchased many more items from the same manufacturer through this dealer. The kicker here is that I wouldn't know a thing about this manufacturer's products if the dealer hadn't been there to answer my questions and loan the product to me for the weekend. Now, when I buy from him I sometimes get discounts, but it's not the driving factor for the purchase.

On the flipside, I've bought on Agon after hearing things at shows and at friends. Doing so, I don't believe I am taking away business that I owe to my dealer. The difference is I didn't go to my dealer and listen and then say "if you don't give me a discount I'll buy elsewhere!" or some other ultimatum that puts his business at risk.

I am in a similar boat as you, in that $11k is alot to spend on anything audio, and I want to get a good deal like anybody. But, I don't want to sacrifice my values in the process.

This is a great hobby. Don't underestimate how much a good dealer can improve your enjoyment of it.