Is harmonic accuracy and timbre important at all?


Disclaimer: I am not Richard Hardesty in disguise. But I have reached similar ground after many years of listening and equipment swapping and upgrading and would enjoy discourse from a position that is simply not discussed enough here.

I feel a strong need to get on a soap box here, albeit friendly, and I don't mind a rigorous discussion on this topic. My hope is that, increasingly, manufacturers will take notice of this important aspect of music reproduction. I also know that it takes time, talent, money and dedication to accomplish accuracy of timbre in speaker design and that "shamanism" and "snake oil," along with major bux spent on fine cabinetry that may do little to improve the sound, exists everywhere in this industry.

I fully acknowledge that Dunlavy and Meadowlark, a least for now, are gone, and that only Vandersteen and Thiel survive amidst a sea of harmonically inaccurate, and frequently far more expensive, speakers.

Can you help me understand why anyone would want to hear timbre and harmonic content that is anything but as accurate as possible upon transducing the signal fed by the partnering amplifier? It seems to me if you skew the sonic results in any direction away from the goal of timbral accuracy, then you add, or even subtract, any number of poorly understood and potentially chaotic independent and uncontrollable variables to listening enjoyment.

I mean, why would you want to hear only some of the harmonic content of a clarinet or any other instrument that is contained on the recording? Why would you not want the speaker, which we all agree is the critical motor that conveys the musical content at the final stage of music reproduction, to provide you with as much as possible by minimizing harmonic conent loss due to phase errors, intentionally imparted by the speaker designer?

Why anyone would choose a speaker that does this intentionally, by design, and that is the key issue here, is something I simply cannot fathom, unless most simply do not understand what they're missing.

By intentional, I mean inverting the midrange or other drivers in phase in an ill-fated attempt to counter the deleterious effects that inexpensive, high-order crossovers impart upon the harmonic content of timbre. This simply removes harmonic content. None of these manufacurers has ever had the cojones to say that Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen or John Dunlavy were wrong about this fundamental design goal. And none of them ever tries to counter the fact that they intentionally manufacture speakers they know, by their own hand, are sonically inaccurate, while all the all the same in many cases charging unsuspecting so-called audiophiles outlandish summs of money.

Also, the use of multiple drivers assigned identical function which has clearly been shown to smear phase and creates lobing, destroying essentially the point source nature of instruments played in space that give spatial, time and phasing so important to timbre rendering.

I truly belive that as we all get better at listening and enjoying all the music there is on recordings, both digital and analog, of both good and bad recording quality, these things become ever more important. If you learn to hear them, they certainly do matter. But to be fair, this also requires spending time with speakers that, by design, demonstrably present as much harmonic phase accuracy that timbre is built upon, at the current level of the state of the art.

Why would anyone want a speaker to alter that signal coming from the amp by removing some harmonics while retaining or even augmenting others?

And just why in heck does JMLab, Wilson, Pipedreams and many others have to charge such large $um$ at the top of their product lines (cabinetry with Ferrari paint jobs?) to not even care to address nor even attempt to achieve this? So, in the end I have to conclude that extremely expensive, inaccurate timbre is preferred by some hobbyists called audiophiles? I find that simply fascinating. Perhaps the process of accurate timbre appreciation is just a matter of time...but in the end, more will find, as I did, that it does matter.
stevecham
So many great points raised here, where do I start?

I asked Kathy at Thiel once if she or Jim knew of studios that monitored or mixed with Thiels let alone time and phase coherent speakers. They told me they had no knowledge. And even if the speaker is not in the chain, it is true that many recordings were made with the use of mono mix to ensure that ambient send/returns did not create cancelations so you can see how small imperfections in the subjective correction in that area might be caused by inaccurate monitors.

Believe me, sometimes I wish I were Richard Hardesty, or at least had the luxury of writing all day and listening to music and pissing people off. Instead, I do product management for a biotech firm. I'll bet Richard doesn't know what a polymorphonucelotide sequence is.

Yes mass market compressed crap is just that.

I'm not in the least concerned that we are not reproducing a live event but that we are accurately reproducing a recorded one.

Warrenh: I have three speakers that I believe are accurate. Meadowlark Kestrel2, questionable only because they are only two way and I don't think it is possible with anything less than three way. I also have Thiel CS6s and Vandersteen 2Ces, both of which I do believe offer accuracy that others I've owned, such as Paradigm Ref 100s V1, Dynaudio Contour 3.0, KEF Q15 never did. I used to have an original pair of Thiel CS7s and regret selling them for the Dynaudios. This was where my eventual revelation led me back to the sonic accuracy of the Thiel design, and now to Vandersteen. Hope this answers your question.

Hey I will stand on one unmoveable soapbox from the measurement angle in all of this: if the speaker can't do the triangular step response, then there is no way it can ever be timbrally accurate, even if it is flat FR wise; the time domain will eventually be realized as essential to recorded music reproduction in speaker design. Mark my words.

Thank you all again for such intelligent and stimulating discourse.

But even if a speaker can do a good step response it doesn't mean the speaker will sound accurate in a typical listening room. It's a lot more complex than you're making it out to be.
I think sounding accurate and being accurate are 2 different things. The speaker is either accurate or it's not. If the room is messed up, changing the speaker is not going to help. Treating the room is the only option.
If a speaker comes off the technical development path and its basic characteristics are flawed, it will never get that back. It may "Sound" good to some but sounding good and accurate are 2 different things.
It has been my experience over the years that most "Audiophiles" will not like an accurate speaker. We have all been exposed to inaccurate reproduction and developed what is probably a skewed look at things. We are looking for what "Sounds" good to us and not what is correct. I think we can blame a lot on poor sources. The CD for the most part stinks. Sure, they are a few good sounding disks around but most are pretty bad. A lot of the old remastered CD's to SACD sound even worse on that format. It exposes their flaws and I think accurate speakers do this also. Nobody wants 3/4 of their collection sounding bad. So we tune it to "Sound" good most of the time. Nothing wrong with that but if you just accept the fact, you can sure buy great audio for a lot less money.
I just think a lot of us, including myself are chasing our tails on a never ending quest that will never be fulfilled.
2 channel audio is slowly dying away being replaced by multi channel which IMO is even a bigger pile of crap. Here, inaccurancies are the rule of the day and I'm not sure I would want a "Accurate" home theater. I want a home theater that sounds good! Stark contrast to 2 channel.
In conclusion, people are going to buy what sounds good to them no matter what the technical specifications. There will always be the dissenting few that demand accuracy, quality and value for their dollar. But just look at what most of the population buys. Can I say Best Buy!
It is a real shame that audio is going the direction it is. More and more pricey equipment and more and more of the same with the same arguments.
When you have no real standards, things get pretty chaotic.
I think, "If it makes you happy, then you have done good!"
Get off the trail and buy more music. That's what it is all about---right?
With all the technology up to now: if you were before a $250,000 rig, in a perfect acoustic setting, and a live acoustic instrument, (you pick it) how long would it take you to know (eyes closed of course) which was which? Under 10 seconds? Less?
Warrenh, About as long as took the first string of the guitar to be plucked or the first horn to blow! I don't believe you can buy close to live at any price and never will. That's why I think we chase our tails so much.
Actually, it's kind of depressing. What's an old audiophile to do?