Jazz for aficionados

As has been demonstrated many times over in this thread, the beauty of music (any music) is that it touches individuals in unique ways. Objectivity can only take one so far in determining (if one must) who is better, best, etc. as there is an inextricable link between what the artist is saying (or trying to say), how he is saying it, and the sensibilities of the particular listener. There are, in fact, certain universally accepted "cues" that the cognoscenti (aficionados) use to establish certain and usually broad benchmarks, but they are of usually limited use in discussions given the emotional nature of both the music and the discussions.

Having said that, and re the "Layla" cut, I definitely "get it", I just think that it is average blues trumpet playing at best. I think that the cut, as a whole, is really good and with a good vibe. But, where as this should have been an opportunity for "the jazz cat" to cut Clapton's, while good, typically derivative blues playing to shreds, it is only on a par with.

This I really get:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=HJLsvlYE9t8

Talk about "telling a story". Or, really playing in the pocket. Listen to the subtle inflections that propel the groove even at (especially?) such a slow tempo. True artistry; IMO.

I hope this is downloadable (it is not on my IPad). This is one of my very favorite Wynton solos on record from one of my very favorite records of all time. Wynton was really on that day:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ur-lNeq4pQM

Cootie's music conjured up visions of Cab Calloway strutting across the stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zvxIZZUyAk

I listened to Shirley Horn twist in order to absorb Wynton's solo, and it was every bit as good as you said it was. (apparently I have been misunderstood) I never said Wynton couldn't blow the trumpet, we just have two different concepts of good music when he does his own thing. Even if everyone in the universe thought Wynton's concept of good music was the best, when I go to the record store, I pay the cost to be the boss.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, Shirley Horn can really get you emotionally involved in her songs, they seem like short stories of her life. I'll have to get more of her work.

Shirley Horn, I have her CD 'you won't foget me'. That one includes Wynton, Branford and Miles. The lady traveled in good company. On another one she has Roy Hargrove. She has a thing for trumpet players? The clip you sent was indeed special.

Cootie Williams played with the Duke. So of course he can play. Wynton's solo on the Horn song was him doing what the song and the moment required.

Your comments on personal perferences and appreciations are right on target. Well said. Even me, with my big mouth, cannot think of anything to add. You Nailed it.

Your comments on the Wynton/Clapton CD? Extremely Close, But No Cigar.

You are not considering the total situation. I.E. the context of the playing. This was not a 'blowing' session. It was written arranged music, promoted as Wynton and Eric play the blues. It was not a head cutting event. The audience got what they came to hear.

All music arranged by wynton. No leader dominating the solos. Everyone played. All Had their moments. This was not a JATP thingy.

Considering the moment, the song, the location, the event,... the solo was perfect. The Shirley Horn tune called for something else, so he did something else. When he performs with Kathleen Battle doing Mozart, he again, does what is called for.

A few things to remember about Wynton.

He plays to please the audience. He actually wants people to like Jazz. So, sometimes he meets them halfway.

He is not from the 'mean streets' of anywhere, he is a memeber of a highly accomplished and respected Jazz music family, born and raised in the birthplace of Jazz.

He plays to give enjoyment and pleasure to the listener.
I have him playing and singing (scatting) on a CD by Jon Hendricks. Doing the same on a CD with Willie Nelson!
And of course the Clapton CD. Name another Jazz player that could do that. You want to know where he is coming from, think Louis Armstrong.

Some Jazz players, usually the unsuccessful ones, play for themselves. And others, the ones that do well, play for their audience, while exposing them to new things.

I ignored your 'IMO' thingy. That's understood and applies to us all, and if that was the final word, we could close the thread now.

Cheers

Orpheus10, good description of Shirley Horne's artistry. She is a beautiful singer; and plays great piano, too. That recording (Here's To Life) featuring the songs and orchestrations of Johnny Mandel is a true gem; beginning to end.

Rok, I am well aware of the context of "Layla". Of course, it was not a blowing session. But, in any context, when a truly exceptional improviser plays, the depth of the playing can "shred to pieces" lesser players. It doesn't have to be flashy, nor with a lot of notes. Nor does the intent have to be to surpass anyone else; the playing simply excels. Your point about Wynton playing for the moment is well taken. But, I would not give him too much credit for that; that is basic musicianship and there are many layers of excellence that go beyond that basic musical demand that separate the greats from the not so great.

****He plays to give enjoyment and pleasure to the listener.
I have him playing and singing (scatting) on a CD by Jon Hendricks. Doing the same on a CD with Willie Nelson!
And of course the Clapton CD. Name another Jazz player that could that****

Are you kidding? That is what jazz players do (not all scat well, of course). They are able to fit into a variety of situations:

Zoot Sims played on Phoebe Snow's debut album. Phil Woods played on Billy Joel's "I Love You Just The Way You Are". Wayne Shorter played on Steely Dan records, the list goes on and on. BTW, you want to hear great scatting from a trumpet player? Check out Clark Terry; amazing!

I am not a Wynton basher in the least. My point (which perhaps I have tried to make a little too gingerly, in order to not offend some;-) ) is that Wynton is a fine player, but sometimes inconsistent; and, at the end of the day, not on the level of many of the greats as far as depth of playing. That is simply why, with so many great classic recordings still missing from my collection, Wynton's are just not near the top of my list. Additionally, I doubt that fifty years from today, jazz students will be transcribing Wynton's solos. As far as he deserving the adulation that he receives from some AS A PLAYER, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Amazing performances by Clark Terry:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3AvImcsbt1U

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ldnGJn3wz2s