Has anyone tried double CLS


I had posed this question before because I had two pair of CLS11Z speakers in a Home theatre set up that I wanted to find a way to stack.I had just been feeling a loss of music after I sold my stacked pair of esl 57, and was curious about stacking the CLS. Would the bass improve as much as it did when the Quads were stacked?The similarity between the two speakers was that each speaker was bass shy and that attempts at sub-woofing never really were sucessful even after trying the Depth.So after seeing coverage of the RMAF and of the Kimber/Soundlab set up I decided that if they could double up the Soundlabs side by side,why couldn't the CLS be run that way?I was also bolstered by the fact that when my friend Tony went from three to four panels per side the sound from his Acoustats really improved.It is a shame that Martin Logan gave up on the CLS and went the hybrid route,because all they needed to do was increase the panel size.If Mr Saunders can get his hands on a couple of pair of CLS and wires them to a good amp in series he will hear that a lot of problems with the original CLS disappear.Maybe it will even change his priorities,so that great uncompromised sound and not floor space rules.
lacee

Hi,

Its interesting to talk about the CLS in a stacked configuration to get better bass. I do not believe this will work due to the design. From what I can remember the best configuration for the CLS I had heard was from the designer who produced the American Hybrid phono stage.

He used a tube amp in place of the CLS's own transformer/power supply. This approach borrowed from the old Acoustat designs, a direct drive amplifier configuration. The efficiency was better and CLS played with High SPL in the bass. I was in shock.
I've had my CLS IIz for 16 years (started out as CLS II) and I've had 3 different bass augmentation systems with them: Wilson Puppy 2 (excellent), Kinergetics SW-800 towers (awful) and now a single ML Depth (the best!)

Stacking two pairs of panels vertically is a ridiculous idea for the II, IIa, or IIz panels because they radiate different frequencies at the middle (mid-range), top and bottom (highs) and of course bass along the inner and outer edges - so you can see by stacking a pair, you'd have a "super-high frequency panel in the middle (vertically), a midrange radiator above and below that, and a single high frequency radiator at the very top and very bottom -- PRODUCING AN UNCONTROLLABLE PATTERN OF FREQUENCY CANCELLATION AND REINFORCEMENT!!!

Now, the ORIGINAL (CLS) panels MIGHT work becase they are evenly divided (and only) vertically, and not side to side (no bass sections on each edge) but to me, it's a total EXERCISE IN FUTILITY, and as someone else pointed out, won't extend the bass any lower -- you'll just get more output at 80 Hz (which is where the CLS starts its rolloff to bass oblivion!)

If you want the ultimate great sounding CLS system, look at mine. The first EXCELLENT improvement I made to them in 16 years (and LONG OVERDUE) was to finally put them up on Sound Anchor stands. The joy of hearing what they could really sound like was overwhelming. Imagine, even better transients! (because of the rock-solid panel bracing provided by the stands.) And cleaner bass (what bass there is) because of eliminating the floor boundary, and wider sweet spot -- just an amazing transformation - I almost forgot to be angry for not trying (even concrete blocks for God's sake) sooner.

Then there's the bass issue. If you just let the CLS's bass response decay naturally -- i.e. run them full range with no hi-pass filter, then all you need from a sub is to bring it in at 35 to 45 Hz (depending on the source material) ant a gentle 6dB/octave slope. The ML Depth with its omnidirectional radiating pattern, and its 3 very lightweight long throw 8' drivers is so FAST, that you have NO IDEA the bass isn't coming from the panels themselves. Just set one sub smack in the middle, set the phase angle to 90 degrees (to reinforce the effective phase of the dipole panels,) and you're all done.

Less is more gents. Those panels were not designed to be part of a line array. Just get 'em up off the floor, add just a dash of the fastest little non-directional sub on the planet, and gloat!!

BTW, a brand new pair of SA CLS stands from Larry at High-End palace in Miami, shipped, is only $500, and a used Depth in good condition is $1300. Plus $100 to $400 for a pair of RCA ICs from preamp to sub and you've given a whole new life to an already classic speaker system for what? $2000? Do it!

PS: Look at my system for before and after pics.
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You guys are all talking unproven nonsense. I am reporting the facts as I actually am living with doubled CLS11Z at the moment.Not a flight of fancy.Until you hear or try this you are just speculators.Now to get back to the real facts and truthful description of what is happening with double CLS.To begin with there are no cone speaker matches for any Stat that do any more than add disconnected bass.This is where things can really get nasty.Way back when, Harry Person substituted the Hartley cone subs for the panel Magnepan Tympanis,he got more realism and a better match to the speed of the stacked Quads.I used to own single esl 57, heard a stacked pair in Montreal, realized what I was missing and found another pair ,made the stands and away you go.It is all about the radiating area of the speaker.Anyone out there remember the Acoustat with the servo tube amps? The more panels you added,( up to 6 per side per amp)the easier the amp ran the more bass you got and the more effortless sound,the only limiting factor was room size. These are not stacked arrays,but multiple panels, side by side.This is what Kimber did at RMAF, they are not stacked,the speakers are 8 feet tall un stacked.
I have been at this game for over 30 years and I have owned the stacked 57, single 63, Acoustat 3 panel(unamplified)ML sequel and single CLS, CLS with Depth sub and now double CLS.I can tell you from real exposure to all these combinations, that the sound I have now is light years ahead of anything I have owned.Forget the subs and stands,for what you are spending you could have bought an extra pair of CLs and then know what I am talking about.
No Rube Goldberg for me, sorry Lacee. My system does EVERYTHING just the way it is. And besides, I don't have 20 ft ceilings ;--)
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Everytime you mention it, I consider what you have done. Pelase send me a photo or two of your speaker setup. Offline is fine...maybe even better for me! duke@mesls.org

I am considering doing the same thing as you have, so please send a photo.

BTW, I get a 3dB to 5dB suckout from 160Hz to about 200Hz at my current listening position. Do you get that at all?