Room matters


Hi team, I'd like to propose an intriguing question to the community.
What's the difference between Proac D28 and D38? Ovator S-600 and S-400? Neat MF5 and MF7? Avalon Ascendant and Indra? Gamut L5 and L7? Pioneer S1-EX and S3-EX?
The answer to all of the above questions is "none"!
It depends on the room size. Assuming to have a well balanced and top of the art electronic system, if someone wants to improve from a loudspeaker point of view there is no way in doing it unless with a bigger room, hence a bigger loudspeaker. (changing brand because of personal taste and budget is not to be cosidered).
Am I too much provocative?

Thanks for sharing your ideas.
wafer
That's not exactly what I was suggesting but an Anthem D2v or Denon AVP-A1HDCI or Meridian 861 (all of which have analog outputs much superior to the Integra) might be competitive with digital sources and not encumber any "purism" issues when using EQ. Just a thought.

Kal
Kal,

Yikes! I just googled the MSRPs of the models you mentioned.

Just to be clear - Over the past couple of years I have found your posts to these threads invaluable. Along with Drew E., Bob Reynolds and Shadorne, these comments have completely changed the way I configure my system which now reflects a lot of things I picked up from you guys (i.e. DRC, albeit in the bass region only). I suspect that, going forward, you will drag me (possibly kicking and screaming) completely over to your side (AKA the dark side).

Thanks again. If this has wandered a bit OT, I'll bring it back full circle for the OP:

You would be well advised to heed Kal's comments re: room issues as I (mostly) did.

Marty
Don't let the prices scare you but do keep an open mind. Times (and technology) do change.

Kal
However, every one of these systems that I have auditioned works wonders, particularly in the bass. To reconcile the conflict, I use DRC only for subwoofers - where it makes the biggest improvement - and run a (mostly) "purist" main signal path.

I agree with Kal - in theory there is no "purity" reason that DRC cannot be used throughout, however, from an acoustics perspective the ultra LF frequencies (below about 100 Hz) is the only area where DRC can effectively correct specific frequency related room modal effects. A waveform at 1000 Hz is about a foot long so any specific corrections are not going to apply to a large enough area of the room to be worth doing, and, above the ultra LF freqencies, DRC is really just an EQ adjustment, which can help correct a bright room, for example. In this case, it is always best to get appropriate speakers and acoustic room treatments first rather than make EQ adjustments. The same can be said for the ultra LF - bass traps and an ideal room that needs no correction is likely to sound much better than a system with heavy DRC. However, it is nearly impossible to achieve good acoustics down to 20 Hz so DRC becomes the only "practical" solution.

So in a sense "purity" applies in an acoustic sense - get the room as good as we can (as pure as possible) before doing anything else.

The impure part of DRC is that we are artificially adjusting BOTH the level of the primary AND that reflected signal in order to adjust the COMBINED level to be flat (our ears hear the combined signal but we also have a sense of primary versus reflected as well - although this sense is very poor or weak as you get to low bass frequencies). In reality, in an ideal world, your speakers would have a flat response and therefore you should only want to adjust the level of room reflections/modes (too strong or too weak).

Perhaps, the ultimate solution requires active canceling such as is used on noise-canceling headphones - imagine an array of active woofers with built in microphones that compare the audio in room delayed response and acoustic decay to the original signal (feedback) and which are able to cancel modal peaks and adjust your room acoustics to perform as desired. Designs such as this probably exist already (in labs) - for example Meyer speakers have a microphone in front of the woofer to reduce primary signal distortion already. The only issue is cost - in theory you could re-create the acoustics of any auditorium if you had such a system.
Since when is a four foot tall speaker big? It seems the majority of examples here are not really that big, at least in my world. Now, a six foot tall speaker at about my height - that's getting big! If one drives a compact car every day a full size sedan will seem large. If you drive a sedan an extended cap pickup will seem larger. I tend to "drive" larger speakers, so I was a bit disappointed in the ones mentioned as large speakers. I call a 3' tall floor standing speaker small; much smaller and you may as well get a monitor.

Wafer, some questions: What do you consider to be a small room, and what do you consider a large room? If you're calling these speakers large, then I'm wondering what you consider to be a large room? (Obviously, cultural differences apply, as many places in the world have far more restrictions on space than in North America. If this is the case, then my comments which follow need to be seen in the context of North American concepts of space in a home.)

Have you conducted such tests in order to arrive at your conclusions? I ask because I have conducted such tests and found that a moderate sized room like mine can be fantastic for larger speakers. The critical difference is not so much the room size, but the quality of the room, i.e. construction, whether it has windows, whether it is tuned, etc. In my case though the room looks rather simple, behind the walls are 7.5" of multiple layer construction, under the drop ceiling is another completely solid ceiling, a thick carpet pad is under the plush Berber carpeting, etc. I would prefer a smaller good acoustic environment to a larger and poorer one. The size is not the only, or even the major, factor in securing a good environment. I know one audiophile personally who has a cavernous space with lots of glass; he's fighting sound problems continually.

Have you simply received the "accepted wisdom" of audio which suggests that one must have a larger room in order to enjoy/utilize to their best larger speakers? At times I enjoy breaking such received "laws" of audio. When I was younger and into aquariums I was told that I could not do a smaller saltwater tank, that I needed at least 25-30 gallons to get it done. I didn't like that limitation, so I did my own ten gallon saltwater tank, and it worked. I have to laugh now when I see "micro" saltwater tanks at aquarium stores. What happened to the "law" of size imposed on tanks? It kind of disappeared when enough intelligent people said, "I don't like that limitation, and I think I can get it done!"

All things equal in terms of room construction and room treatment a larger room may be better. But a generalized principle that with quality gear a larger room is better will not do. It is easier to work with a big speaker in a big room, but it certainly is not impossible to do so in a more modest sized room. And I have heard a lot of great gear sound Ho-Hum in bigger rooms, and/or ones with vaulted ceilings. In addition, in a room which has been built for audio and is tuned the most minute distinctions between speakers, both small and great, are easily heard.

When Bill Dudleston of Legacy Audio brought the Helix speaker system for review (it can be seen in my virtual system pics) and set it up in the room, after blasting it at seemingly jet engine levels he turned to me and said, "This room has excellent acoustics. It is like a mastering studio." That was my goal in design and construction - to make an environment where the absolute best experience of the equipment was the reality. I hear huge speakers at their best every time I listen because they are in a quality environment, not simply a big room.

So, Team member Wafer, from my perspective your question (which seems posed more as a declaration) is provocative if you hold to it without exception. :)