Jazz for aficionados

Schubert, Wenn Gehirne Benzin waren, würden Sie nicht genug haben, zum des Rollers einer Urinameise anzustellen Bewegungs.

Bad syntax in German too.

O-10, I really wish you would stop with the unfounded criticisms and attacks. Disagreement backed by examples and data is not "negativity". Negativity on the part of Rok and, more recently, you is what may have driven some posters away. What on earth do you mean "I turned this thread political"? You are the one who consistently brings politics to these discussions. I don’t know how else to try and impress upon you what it is that causes problems with our interaction. From my vantage point you continue to want to make statements that are factually incorrect and then not have any disagreement. Then, when there is disagreement you accuse the person disagreeing of being "negative" and hide behind the "it’s subjective" idea. I am sorry to say that even your most recent post about music demonstrates the dichotomies and contradictions in some of what you post. I point these things out not to pick on you or to be negative, but in an effort to keep the thread relevant.

You have a wonderful way with imagery and descriptions in some of what you write, I appreciate that. But some of what you write is simply not based on verifiable information and is downright misleading to someone wanting to learn about the art form. Example, and this sort of thing happens regularly:

"Sal Salvador was the man before some of the current players". For someone who puts so much stock in having hung out with jazz players, you should know what calling someone "the man" means. Sal Salvador was a very good player; but, "the man"?!. "The man", when he was a contemporary of Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell and others of a higher stature. If he was "the man", what were the others? If fact, and ironically, Sal Salvador’s biggest legacy is arguably as a jazz educator; something that you seem to have no respect for. Additionally, you criticize "classical people" for the way that they talk about Jazz when by your own admission you never talked to your jazz player friend about music. How do you know? You say you never talked to your friend about music and only about "where to get a good bowl of chili". I could say that this explains a lot, but I prefer to point out that I think it’s time to stop the silly tit-for-tat and try and elevate this thread to something better.  So, please, don't just get upset and accuse me of "negativity"; please tell me what I am missing.  How is Salvador "the man" compared to these other players or current players?

Loved the Pettiford clip; great stuff. Thanks!

Alexatpos very nice clips.  I am getting a sense of your musical preferences and I like it.  Thanks for sharing.  You might like this lesser known guitar player; one of my favorite guitar players who is seldom mentioned:

[URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2l1qkAmaa8A[/URL]

At almost three years of age, 5000 posts and 1.5 million (!!!) views this thread, in spite of the disagreements, bickering and drama is clearly doing something right.  The small number of active participants is, I think, an indication of its potential more than anything else.  For that, and as the OP, you should be commended, O-10.  I also suspect that a lot of these viewers are "testing the waters" of jazz and are potential aficionados.  That is the reason that I feel that threads such as these have a responsibility to offer more than just recommendations of favorite jazz recordings based solely on personal emotional reaction when presented as definitve examples of "the best".  I believe that the seriousness of the music demands that the commentary, at least, strive to some sort of standard of integrity as concerns the commentary on the relative merits of artists, the history of the music and any other consideration that might help someone new to the art form develop a frame of reference for appreciating the music.  It would be a shame if the thread were to become inactive.  With that in mind, I would like to offer some suggestions for guidelines for better and less contentious interaction going forward:

1.  Avoid BLANKET statements about the supposed superiority of one genre or time period in the music.  It should be clear by now that doing so will only result in vehement disagreement that will only serve to derail productive discussions about the music.  We all have preferred genres and time periods in the music and should feel free to express so, but to disrespect another poster's genre or time period preferences will accomplish nothing positive.

2.  When making statements about superiority or disagreement, accompany the statements with musical examples and explanations to back up the position.  Emotional reaction is simply not enough for declarations of superiority applicable to anyone except the person making the comment.

3.  Keep commentary factual and not personal.  Calling a musician that someone takes the trouble to post a "noisemaker" is personal.  Disagreeing about the musical merit of a musician and saying that the reason are x,y&z, accompanied by musical examples is not personal.

4.   Avoid "clickish" interaction.  Obviously, it is sometimes appropriate to address individual posters, but to have protracted two-way dialogue is inappropriate; that is what pm is for.  Be inclusive.

5.  Let's all try and have thicker skins when there is disagreement.  Remember that everyone has different interaction and writing styles and we should all strive to be more secure with our opinions.

6.  Let's put the often used fallback position that some posters are not sticking to the premise of the OP to rest; as if the mission of the thread was ever to only recommend personal favorites and nothing more.  The OP clearly states: "then you will be able to decide whether they (recordings) are worthy of your collection".  

7.  Whenever possible, let's push our envelope of personal descriptive ability .  To say "I like this recording better than that recording" is not a "review".  

Pie in the sky?  Perhaps.  But, as I have said many times before, I hope we can do better.  Here are two posts that I feel are parricularly relevant right now; one recent, the other almost three years old:

*******it is not a shame not knowing something, but to remain in ignorance is. Finally, even if someone chooses that he likes more 'simple' or older forms of music, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as one leaves the window for opportunity for future things to come. **** - Alexatpos

****rok2id
3,000 posts
03-02-2013 5:38pm
I am so nutty, that I buy some CDs that I know I won't like NOW, but maybe I will in the future. Also, if it's considered a great or landmark recording, I want to have it. Same with Classical. So one day, if my theory holds, I will be jamming to Coleman and Dolphy etc.... Musical taste does change over time.****