CARTRIDGE WOES?


4-6-16
I don’t know what to think anymore, I’m perplexed! So, shall we dance? I mean begin?
Dig deep fellas, this system maybe older than some individuals here on this site?

I bought a Lyra Kleos exactly a month ago and have put about 55+ hours on it.
I’ve used my rock collection, my classical collection and my jazz collection across the board for every type of sound. My LP collection is vast with over 6500 records, although I only used a few disks that I am very familiar with, originals and a few re-issues.
I played it on humid days, dry days, cold days and warm days.
After initial setup I enjoyed it and without extreme reserve, I determined that it was an excellent cartridge according to my life’s experience. I started in middle-class Hi-Fi in 1967.

When I compared both cartridges* head to head on identically equipped turntables with identical arms, I heard some very noticeable differences. I understand they should be somewhat different but, please not a lateral movement.
However in all fairness, I presumed it needed more time for its break-in period to work its way into my heart. I began to judge after 45 hours or so.

Earlier this week, I decided to re-set the Kleos up from scratch because I felt the competing ‘other’ cartridge on the other identical table/arm was sounding, well, by all rational sensitivities ‘better’.
Later this week I spent about six hours setting it up all over again from scratch, over and over again, gee, talk about ‘audio-nervosa’. Testing and re-testing with no change.
It took that long because I tried various VTA and VTF and bias settings, along with different platter mats, along with either 3 and 40 ohm settings on my SUT.
Not only were all of the above parameters repeatedly changed but, so was my mental mood and attitude. I tried it all on a full stomach, an empty stomach, good moods, bad moods. I tried it in the quiet of early morning and the peaceful solitude of late evenings.

In consideration of its cost at twice the going rate of the ‘other’* cartridge, I expected something like I was in heaven but, didn’t really get it. The other* cartridge seems to allow me any feelings and moods I may have to be elevated to a higher level of musical enjoyment, regardless of time of day, hour or personal mood.
Things re-considered were; VTF, VTA, azimuth, bias, Baerwald, Stevenson alignment and stylus warm-up time.

Equipment used: Pre-amp: Carver C-4000, with a S.A.E 1800 parametric EQ
                            Amps: double Phase Linear 700 Series II (rebuilt)
                            SUT: Denon AU-320
                            Tone arms: SME non-improved 3009
                            Cartridge leads: AT-6101
                            Tone arm cables: standard vintage SME type
                            Tables: two Technics SL-120mk1
                            Speakers: double stacked AR-LST
                            System cables: Straight-Wire Symphony

Surely, the equipment could be better or even updated, but screw that, my vintage stuff sounds great to me and those others fortunate to hear it!  In fact it qualifies giving my left testicle to have this system 45 years ago!

LPs used are in good to excellent and new condition, and all have been meticulously cleaned with a VPI 16.5
All equipment is carefully maintained and in excellent condition which I rate approx. 7.5+ to 8.5+.

The ‘other’ cartridge is a Lyra Delos with about 100 hours on it’s lovely self.

Although, I’ve been a vinyl user since I was a kid (‘60s) in the last century using a Shure M3D and M-55, and in the early seventies with Shure M91ED, Empire 999sex, Shure V15 Type 3, and in the early 2000’s a AT-150MLx and AT-440MLa, and Shure V15 Type IV with SAS stylus.
Cartridges used within the last 3 years have been Denon DL-304, DL-301II.

Before the arrival of the Lyras, I used a Benz-Micro Ace SL and a Ortofon Rondo Blue,
So, my listening tools haven’t been half bad and in terms of vintage quality are certainly capable in their price category.

If you can find it in your heart, does anyone have any input?
I ask because I’m ready to freak-out and ask for a ‘trade’ and hopefully get two new Lyra Delos in exchange for one slightly used Kleos in the deal. I know fat-chance. Is Jonathan C. a sympathetic and understanding person? ‘Come-on Johnny!’
This maybe wishful thinking but, I’m ready to flip-out just the same.

The Delos seems to have it all over the Kleos in my system. It, being more transparent to all instruments, holographic, precise, flowing and magical, with greater depth and more articulate bass slam and certainly soundstage depth. Compounded by almost surgically cutting highs. It's simply amazing across the board, I mean record.

I realize that system synergy is certainly a key factor here, but the rig sounded more than great with the Delos, why not with the Kleos? I don’t think any component in the ‘system’ is out-classed by using a Kleos. If, I were using an Atlas or Etna, then, I’d concede.
fm

P.S. Please don’t get me wrong, as I type here I’ve been listening to a 3 hour block of classical on the ‘London’ label and the Kleos sounds great, just not as great as the Delos can sound.
I have to give it to “Syntax” who I don’t personally know but, I think he had it correct with his comments.
It sure sounds that way.
No offense or insult to anyone!
frankmarsi
Dear frankmarsi:  For your posts I know that you first than all are a music lover and from your posts I know that you are not a true audiophile but a real/unique music lover.


I don't know if this time is your time to convert too in an audiophile because for you will be very expensive to make audiophile changes in your whole loved audio system.
I know that for every one of us our audio system is like our " child " and we love it.

Now, problem is that top cartridges like the Kleos needs to be matched with true audiophile analog rig that you have not. So you can't ask for bananas to your tomatoes tree, imposible.

If you are not willing to make serious changes in almost all the links in your today audio system just forget about not only the Kleos but other top cartridges because your system can't really honor the great quality performance level of those today cartridges of those today true audiophile items,.

It's not only a tonearm or phono stage but your whole system.

If I was you and with no enough money to make changes then the best advise is that you follow enjoying the music as a music lover and for get about any other approach.

What I can't understand is how a Lyra/JC oficial distributor can sold the Kleos to you with no advise on your system other that only make money, pity.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear frankmarsi: """  I’m not coming back to be with members that can be this disruptive ... """


Frank, my post had not the disruptive attitude. Things are that some audiophiles are not really audiophiles but " hardware's lovers " but a true audiophile first than all is a music lover and discerns exactly what means that " music lover " expression. I understand you and understand your frustation but as I posted is almost imposible to really help you.

I think that the culprit of your " problem " with is the distributor where you bought the Kleos and IMHO he is responsable of the whole scenario you are living with.

Apologies if some of our posts disturb you, I'm sure that no single of them was posted with that intention/attitude.

Thank's for your understanding.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
I too use vintage gear. I am somewhat bemused by the original poster's reaction to donc55's prognosis. I believe he is spot on. Your turntables and tonearms are not up to the job. 
WEB QUOTE:
Do not take it personal.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/688946-sell-magnepan-3-6r-s-buy-nht-xd-2.html

""""Anyone who has looked closely at the internals of a 3.6R knows that the internal parts and wiring—and the standard of workmanship—are below par, and cannot possibly extract the best performance from this planar design...........why oh why must the 3.6R be built like a cheap transistor radio? .........their weaknesses can be disturbing. They don’t do bass particularly well, and fair poorly in the imaging department. They also lack the dynamic impact in the lower registers of good box designs........doesn’t jump out at you with the same snap and attack that box speakers provide.........not as deep as that of other speakers. .bass is somewhat lacking, both in extension and fullness, which makes the sound slightly lean..........I initially found the tweeters to be a little too bright. Instruments like trumpets, and even woodwind instruments, had too much energy and force. ............ The stock stands, flimsy at best, are victims of a design-to-a-price policy. Also disappointing are the external crossover boxes, and the way they couple to the speakers.............. In my opinion, this setup is inadequate. How can speakers that have gotten so much critical acclaim fly in the face of everything we know about the importance of construction integrity and rigidity? It is not the ultimate classical music lover’s speaker, but it is in the game. But then, the Maggies, IMO, are lousy transducers of anything *other* than classical because they’re simply not accurate enough.

I don’t know what to say. I find the treble in every Maggie I’ve heard to be pretty bad and have no capability of reproducing the bell of a cymbal (yes, I’m a drummer). Thin and wispy comes to mind.

Maggies are just about the only ribbon speaker brand left. So if you like ribbons, there you are. If you like cones and domes, you have 200 brands. So it’s not surprising. But that is still a very small and dwindling portion of the Stereophile world, let alone the real world.
think Maggies are great for certain kind of listening or for certain tastes. I can’t live with them, but many of my customers have at least a fling with them. In the end, most of them move on because of the limitations. If I only listened to classical, I’d certainly consider owning them.
I’d also prefer to own Quad ESLs over any of the Magnepans I’ve heard over the years, no contest, because I think they have superior midrange reproduction and a smoother, if slightly rolled off treble.

Now, I am not saying they don’t sound nice to *some* people. I am sure Magnepan has the technology and skill to create a ruler flat crossover/FR, but they obviously deviated from this for a reason. They *wanted* their speaker to sound the way it does. It is a very inaccurate speaker, but perhaps this colored sound is what some people will prefer. In fact, we know their speakers sell, so they are doing something right. But what they aren’t doing right is creating an accurate speaker. In fact, those Maggies are *far* from accurate. And when it all comes down to it in the end, most audiophiles seems to want an accurate speaker.

In fact, one of my beefs with Maggies is that they are *not* dynamic at all. They have to be cranked up to sound decent but only so much so you don’t blow them.

if the Maggies flattened at 6dB/octave, then they’d have a nice, flat down tilting slope. They don’t, ergo, they’re not flat no matter *how* you measure them or correct for them. The fact that you even *think* they could sum to flat is fantastically hilarious :""""



Do not take it personal. Just telling it as is.

Lookie Here..........
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=magnapan+3.6&_osacat=293&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573...


Gee, even my rarest of the rare, the holy grail of vintage speakers sold last month on the auction site at $3,800. plus $200 for S/H. And for the non-cognoscenti, Mark L., did pretty well with his ’Amati’ series 1&2.
But when the very designer himself speakers to my questions so eloquently, professionally and helpfully, t’s a little disheartening to believe the misinformed, misguided and condescending out right put-down of another person’s beliefs and there of life’s knowledge in some of the replies I received is discouraging at best.
Especially in my first post no less. With such infantile responses, I’ll just pick up my ball and jacks and leave.
So, a weeks wish for explosive diarrhea to you posters of negativity and unbelievably lofty, elitist notions of yourself’s. And too think, I was under the understanding that ’forum.audiogon’ was one of the better more friendly sites.Perhaps a few bad apples do spoil the basket.
Oh, and enjoy the music.
I’m just say’in.
Do not take it personal.
Oh, and "suck it up" while you’re at it, paaaallllllllll........
OTOH, perhaps there was a sale of those room dividers and therefore my retort is unwarranted?
I'll give that guy with the concrete listening room some quarter here though, it obvious why I do.
Analogue can throw up unexpected results, there are so many variables in adjustment, phono stages etc.

I owned a Linn TT in the past and changed my supex cart for the then "must have" toika cart. It was set up for me by the dealer - even so it was hard to identify any real improvement. Over the years I had similar experiences with that TT / arm and cartridges,

I now have a much more detailed and revealing TT and tonearm, cartridge changes are very apparent now. obviously the Linn was masking changes.

As to setting up carts and their performance, recently, another forum member had sent his cartridge in advance for me to setup in my tonearm for a comparison. This obviously necessitated rejigging my tone arm, as his was a Koetsu coral stone I did not mind! This gave me the chance to give it a good listen over a day or so and acclimatise myself to the sound.

When the visitor arrived we spent a good deal of the day comparing several of my cartridges with his.They all sounded different each one having it’s own strengths/characteristics.

When he left, on refitting my cart ( a Lyra), I was disappointed with the sound,  it was not as I had been hearing previously. The Koetsu had been weighty and warm but had not got the attack or spaciousness of the Lyra, it now sounded thin by comparison.

I thought I had managed to dial in the arm’s previous settings but it seemed I was wrong.
I decided to completely reset the geometry of the Lyra, incrementally adjusting the alignment etc (after protractor measuring) by ear.

I eventually arrived at a sound better than before removal, similar weight to the Koetsu but with tighter bass, greater speed and dynamics. So set up is important, however it sounds like the OP has done this well.

FWIW, I had just put new valves in my phono stage. Because of the visit I had left the phono on over night, something I don’t usually do with valve gear.
So when I re-set my cart the phono had been on for about 30 hrs continuously. This may also have some bearing on the improvement, I dont know if NOS tubes need a burn in period.