I would like to, first and foremost, commend Rok for his valiant effort at diplomacy. In some ways it would be easy for me to walk away from this thread and not continue to get mired in what is turning out to be contentious and, worse, pathetic on a level that I never thought it would reach. I hope Rok’s advise that we return to the music is heeded. I do find it highly ironic that while there have been many great posts and comments made about music over the last couple of days, it is the thread’s very OP who has ignored them and who seems intent on dragging the thread back into the mud.
I point this out, and make the following comments, not to further participate in the mudslinging but in a last ditch effort to put an end to this nonsense. I have proven it to my satisfaction that I could, as I have done over the last few days, simply ignore O-10 and go about my interaction with other participants; however, I find this approach pathetic itself. I will return to simply ignoring O-10’s provocations if this last ditch effort is not effective and simply see how long I can stand this other, childish, approach. I say this with the full knowledge that it is obvious to me that O-10 is the one who, since he can’t get himself to say the words: "Frogman and Learsfool I want you to leave the thread", is "on a mission" to get us to do just that by making it so distasteful to be here that there is no other alternative. On the other hand there may be something else altogether at work here 😁
****Learsfool, I’ve got nothing else to do, I can play this game all night long.****
Bingo!!!
O-10, this will truly be my last effort to reach out to you to stop the nonsense. As I said previously, I can go back to simply ignoring your snipes and interact with the other participants. I point out the following to clear the air about certain misunderstandings and to, hopefully, help you to see why this contentiousness happens. Consider this an olive branch of sorts; and, from my vantage point I have always offered you olive branches when the going gets rough.
The MAWRON comment (sigh!):
It was you who used the term to describe what you THOUGHT Learsfool and I thought you were. I then quickly pointed out to you that, no, I didn’t think that was what you were (olive branch). Now, allow me to explain how it all started:
You posted a music clip by Previn and stated that you "searched for classical music examples by Previn and this is all that I could find". You followed that comment with the clip of "Like Young". Upon searching Previn on YouTube literally dozens of clips come up; so, what is so outlandish about someone assuming that you thought that the clip was of classical music; especially when that someone proudly proclaims that he knows nothing about classical music. I commented that it was not classical music and that I thought it was "pretty bland stuff" and "no better than what one hears in elevator from Kenny G". That was the point at which, as always, the s&+t hit the fan. This one little "controversy" is a great example of what happens time and time again and it gives many further examples of specific problems with how, from my vantage point, you then go on to distort what actually transpires and how you then insist on keeping the interaction in the mud. I could offer many examples like this, but I will keep it to this one:
1. Re a much later, divisive and negative comment by you: Especially considering how you, yourself, have always been eager to jump in and join dialogue between other members, your comment that I "had no business commenting on" the "Like Young" clip is completely uncalled for and unreasonable. I was under the impression that this is an open forum for anyone to participate in any discussion. The reaction does, however, give insight into a certain mindset.
2. Re a recent comment by you on the idea that I thought "Like Young" sounded like Kenny G. Please pay attention now, this is a KEY POINT and just one of the problems with not having any interest in speaking the language of music and, hence, not understanding nuance in the language so as to be able to make important distinctions: I never said it sounded like Kenny G; I said it was no better than Kenny G. If you can’t understand the difference then I am truly wasting my time, but I will persevere (olive branch).
The above goes to a key problem which is actually twofold:
O-10, you seem to feel that any one artist who you really like is incapable of putting out substandard work simply because much of the other work is good. Whether it be Grant Green, Previn, whoever, if any negative comment is made about a clip by that artist, you react very negatively and defensively. Moreover, and to the second part of the problem, well....I will describe it by way of example:
What, in heaven’s name, does the fact that Ella Fitzgerald recorded a good version of "Like Young" have to do with the fact that Previn’s version sounds like the Muzak (I’m showing my age) one would hear in an elevator? How on earth does the fact that Fitzgerald’s is good make Previn’s any less bad. There is example after example of this kind of, sorry...but there is no other way to describe it....sophomoric view of music.
3. For the record, it WAS Learsfool who I referred to in my comment about the MAWRON word since in O-10’s original comment in which he used that word he addressed Learsfool and I. However, I was clear and deliberate in my later comment in saying "....other esteemed aficionado who I will not involve in this bs" and I also made clear that these were MY opinions. O-10, you then proceeded, in a very nasty move, to suggest that I was speaking for Learsfool. That move alone should have been enough for me to never want to interact with you again. But, alas....(olive branch).
4. O-10, you tend to want to see only what you want to see. Your calls for putting things "up for a vote" is a good example of this:
You go on a tear after I simply said that I liked Mitchell’s solo on a Blackey clip and that I felt it was so good that it alone made that clip my favorite over A COMPETELY DIFFERENT PERFORMANCE in which Donald Byrd soloed. You then go on to assume that I thought Mitchell was a better player than Byrd and wanted to put thigs "up for a vote". I had already made my feelings about the two players clear, Rok was impressively diplomatic about it, and Alex and Acman3 both commented that they preferred Mitchell (sorry guys for having to involve you). Then, days later you still wanted to put it up for a vote! As someone here likes to say, wtf?
5. Sometimes the dust seems to be settling and it seems that we can go back to discussing music, jokes get made, I post a clip of O-10 dancing in the dessert 😉 (olive branch), etc. ; and, here comes O-10 again with some little snide comment stirring up the pot again. Most recently: "obsessed musicians".
6. O-10, let me be clear: I DONT think the "problem" is that you are not interested in learning about music. I am, believe it or not, perfectly ok with that. The problem is that you don’t want to allow others to speak the language of music; not a reasonable expectation. You, yourself, want to be able to critique others’ music choices and use terms with negative connotations like "soulless", "intellectual", "stereotypical jazz" etc., but you don’t want to hear why others feel the way they do about music that you like. Not a reasonable expectation. Please try to recognize how just about every recent post by you is laced with at least one snide or negative comment or insinuation; that approach will achieve nothing positive and will certainly discourage anyone from interacting.
Anyway, I could go on and on with example after example. I hope this diatribe serves some good purpose (olive branch). As I said, it will be my last OF THE SORT....directed specifically at you anyway.
BTW, "The Subterraneans" score I thought is terrific; thanks for that (olive branch). As I said in my comments about "Like Young", Previn is a "terrific musician" (olive branch). One of the most well rounded and versatile in the business. As Learsfool points out, he has also been inconsistent and some of his work is not particularly interesting imo. Yes, he plays good jazz piano, but he is no Kenny Barron. He is a very good film score composer, but he is no Bernard Hermann or Leonard Bernstein. He is a good classical music conductor, but certainly no Carlos Kleiber.
BTW, when I listened to your clip of "The Subterraneans" I noticed that the credits credit Bud Shank for the alto work. When I listened I said to myself that does not sound like Bud Shank it sounds like Art Pepper . I looked into it and the fact is that the alto player was Art Pepper; fyi.
I am now ready to get back to the music.
Everyone have a great weekend!
I point this out, and make the following comments, not to further participate in the mudslinging but in a last ditch effort to put an end to this nonsense. I have proven it to my satisfaction that I could, as I have done over the last few days, simply ignore O-10 and go about my interaction with other participants; however, I find this approach pathetic itself. I will return to simply ignoring O-10’s provocations if this last ditch effort is not effective and simply see how long I can stand this other, childish, approach. I say this with the full knowledge that it is obvious to me that O-10 is the one who, since he can’t get himself to say the words: "Frogman and Learsfool I want you to leave the thread", is "on a mission" to get us to do just that by making it so distasteful to be here that there is no other alternative. On the other hand there may be something else altogether at work here 😁
****Learsfool, I’ve got nothing else to do, I can play this game all night long.****
Bingo!!!
O-10, this will truly be my last effort to reach out to you to stop the nonsense. As I said previously, I can go back to simply ignoring your snipes and interact with the other participants. I point out the following to clear the air about certain misunderstandings and to, hopefully, help you to see why this contentiousness happens. Consider this an olive branch of sorts; and, from my vantage point I have always offered you olive branches when the going gets rough.
The MAWRON comment (sigh!):
It was you who used the term to describe what you THOUGHT Learsfool and I thought you were. I then quickly pointed out to you that, no, I didn’t think that was what you were (olive branch). Now, allow me to explain how it all started:
You posted a music clip by Previn and stated that you "searched for classical music examples by Previn and this is all that I could find". You followed that comment with the clip of "Like Young". Upon searching Previn on YouTube literally dozens of clips come up; so, what is so outlandish about someone assuming that you thought that the clip was of classical music; especially when that someone proudly proclaims that he knows nothing about classical music. I commented that it was not classical music and that I thought it was "pretty bland stuff" and "no better than what one hears in elevator from Kenny G". That was the point at which, as always, the s&+t hit the fan. This one little "controversy" is a great example of what happens time and time again and it gives many further examples of specific problems with how, from my vantage point, you then go on to distort what actually transpires and how you then insist on keeping the interaction in the mud. I could offer many examples like this, but I will keep it to this one:
1. Re a much later, divisive and negative comment by you: Especially considering how you, yourself, have always been eager to jump in and join dialogue between other members, your comment that I "had no business commenting on" the "Like Young" clip is completely uncalled for and unreasonable. I was under the impression that this is an open forum for anyone to participate in any discussion. The reaction does, however, give insight into a certain mindset.
2. Re a recent comment by you on the idea that I thought "Like Young" sounded like Kenny G. Please pay attention now, this is a KEY POINT and just one of the problems with not having any interest in speaking the language of music and, hence, not understanding nuance in the language so as to be able to make important distinctions: I never said it sounded like Kenny G; I said it was no better than Kenny G. If you can’t understand the difference then I am truly wasting my time, but I will persevere (olive branch).
The above goes to a key problem which is actually twofold:
O-10, you seem to feel that any one artist who you really like is incapable of putting out substandard work simply because much of the other work is good. Whether it be Grant Green, Previn, whoever, if any negative comment is made about a clip by that artist, you react very negatively and defensively. Moreover, and to the second part of the problem, well....I will describe it by way of example:
What, in heaven’s name, does the fact that Ella Fitzgerald recorded a good version of "Like Young" have to do with the fact that Previn’s version sounds like the Muzak (I’m showing my age) one would hear in an elevator? How on earth does the fact that Fitzgerald’s is good make Previn’s any less bad. There is example after example of this kind of, sorry...but there is no other way to describe it....sophomoric view of music.
3. For the record, it WAS Learsfool who I referred to in my comment about the MAWRON word since in O-10’s original comment in which he used that word he addressed Learsfool and I. However, I was clear and deliberate in my later comment in saying "....other esteemed aficionado who I will not involve in this bs" and I also made clear that these were MY opinions. O-10, you then proceeded, in a very nasty move, to suggest that I was speaking for Learsfool. That move alone should have been enough for me to never want to interact with you again. But, alas....(olive branch).
4. O-10, you tend to want to see only what you want to see. Your calls for putting things "up for a vote" is a good example of this:
You go on a tear after I simply said that I liked Mitchell’s solo on a Blackey clip and that I felt it was so good that it alone made that clip my favorite over A COMPETELY DIFFERENT PERFORMANCE in which Donald Byrd soloed. You then go on to assume that I thought Mitchell was a better player than Byrd and wanted to put thigs "up for a vote". I had already made my feelings about the two players clear, Rok was impressively diplomatic about it, and Alex and Acman3 both commented that they preferred Mitchell (sorry guys for having to involve you). Then, days later you still wanted to put it up for a vote! As someone here likes to say, wtf?
5. Sometimes the dust seems to be settling and it seems that we can go back to discussing music, jokes get made, I post a clip of O-10 dancing in the dessert 😉 (olive branch), etc. ; and, here comes O-10 again with some little snide comment stirring up the pot again. Most recently: "obsessed musicians".
6. O-10, let me be clear: I DONT think the "problem" is that you are not interested in learning about music. I am, believe it or not, perfectly ok with that. The problem is that you don’t want to allow others to speak the language of music; not a reasonable expectation. You, yourself, want to be able to critique others’ music choices and use terms with negative connotations like "soulless", "intellectual", "stereotypical jazz" etc., but you don’t want to hear why others feel the way they do about music that you like. Not a reasonable expectation. Please try to recognize how just about every recent post by you is laced with at least one snide or negative comment or insinuation; that approach will achieve nothing positive and will certainly discourage anyone from interacting.
Anyway, I could go on and on with example after example. I hope this diatribe serves some good purpose (olive branch). As I said, it will be my last OF THE SORT....directed specifically at you anyway.
BTW, "The Subterraneans" score I thought is terrific; thanks for that (olive branch). As I said in my comments about "Like Young", Previn is a "terrific musician" (olive branch). One of the most well rounded and versatile in the business. As Learsfool points out, he has also been inconsistent and some of his work is not particularly interesting imo. Yes, he plays good jazz piano, but he is no Kenny Barron. He is a very good film score composer, but he is no Bernard Hermann or Leonard Bernstein. He is a good classical music conductor, but certainly no Carlos Kleiber.
BTW, when I listened to your clip of "The Subterraneans" I noticed that the credits credit Bud Shank for the alto work. When I listened I said to myself that does not sound like Bud Shank it sounds like Art Pepper . I looked into it and the fact is that the alto player was Art Pepper; fyi.
I am now ready to get back to the music.
Everyone have a great weekend!