Jazz for aficionados

O-10, I mean no disrespect and I certainly don't want to "violate" any unwritten set of rules that you may have envisioned for this thread as a thread of recommendations of recordings and nothing more.  I am well aware of the fact that you don't want to and didn't intend this thread to be about "learning music".  First of all, I don't see how it's possible to have any kind of substantive discussion of anything or any artist by simply keeping the thread's posts to "I like" or "I don't like", personal anecdotes and nothing more.  Personally, I think it would be a pretty boring thread.  But, let's assume that we agree to those "rules".  I think that the reason we seem to be going around in circles about this is that, first of all, you yourself keep bringing up technical aspects of the music and that there is a basic misunderstanding about some....basics; and the misuse of certain key terms.  The only alternative would be to let those misstatements slide and continue a discussion based on a mistaken premise; not a reasonable proposition I think.  Take this recent issue of improvisation:

Even in hard-bop there is no such thing as "improvising beginning to end" as you wrote.  Moreover, the issues around this disagreement about improvisation applies to ANY style of jazz, not just hard bop. I think that a good place to start clearing up this confusion is by recognizing the mistaken notion that because there are no sheets of music in front of them that the musicians are necessarily "improvising".  This is not the case.  There is, first of all,  the "tune" or melody in a hard bop performance which is not "improvised", and then there are various formulas which are used as the FRAMEWORK for improvisation.  I'll stop there unless you want to know more.  Regards.

Frogman, since this thread began, you have talked about anything you wanted to talk about, why should you stop now?

Sometime there are two or maybe three different conversations going at the same time on different subjects; maybe Rok and Learsfool are engaged in a conversation about classical music, that I couldn't care less about.

Your last paragraph would seem to indicate that you wrote the book on "improvisation" and you even know how every "hard bop" artist improvises. Considering all the different artists I've heard, and the fact that you're going to give some standard framework for improvisation, I think you're talking smack.




Enjoy the music

"I am well aware of the fact that you don't want to and didn't intend this thread to be about "learning music". Why do you direct this BS at me?

I'm hindering all the poor people who want to learn music on this thread; bad bad Orpheus. If it wasn't for me, you could teach em to blow like Miles. Teach on professor Frogman, you have my blessings.


Enjoy the music.

Now I'm really confused.  This is something that you have said repeatedly and here I was thinking that you would appreciate my knowledgment of what you have said countless times.  I'm kinda speechless.  What can I say....

O-10, there is an important difference between setting out to "teach" and simply correcting misstatements in order to keep a discussion relevant.  I hope you are able to understand that distinction at some point.  No, I don't think you are "bad,bad, Orpheus hindering" anyone.  I don't think about these things that way and anyone participating in one of our discussions can choose to ignore my point of view, or not.  However, just as you are free to express yourself about this stuff, so is anyone else, myself included.  Whether you want to accept it or not, what I write about music is not "talking smack"; I do know what am talking about.  I hope you will at some point stop being so reactive and simply take this as an opportunity to, if not learn, have the satisfaction of knowing that you are presenting ideas that are factual.  Please try and read what write a little more carefully: I never said that there was a "standard" framework for improvisation; my comment was:

****and then there are various formulas which are used as the FRAMEWORK for improvisation. I'll stop there unless you want to know more.****

The last sentence goes to the fact that there can be different frameworks and that if you want to know more I would be glad to explain.  I look forward to your stories about Art Blakey.