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Loudspeakers have we really made that much progress since the 1930s?

Since I have a slight grasp on the history or loudspeaker design. And what is possible with modern. I do wonder if we have really made that much progress. I have access to some of the most modern transducers and design equipment. I also have  large collection of vintage.  I tend to spend the most time listening to my 1930 Shearer horns. For they do most things a good bit better than even the most advanced loudspeakers available. And I am not the only one to think so I have had a good num of designers retailers etc give them a listen. Sure weak points of the past are audible. These designs were meant to cover frequency ranges at the time. So adding a tweeter moves them up to modern performance. To me the tweeter has shown the most advancement in transducers but not so much the rest. Sure things are smaller but they really do not sound close to the Shearer.  http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/lmco/shearer.htm
128x128johnk
mikewerner
93 posts
 
Wrong! Clearly you don't know anything about Violins and there is no comparison that makes any sense between an old Violin and an old speaker.  An ideal speaker should have no voice of its own. If it does, some things will sound better than they should and some things a lot worse.
larryi
1,972 posts
 

The point was that technology, modern materials, etc., has not improved on something that is hundreds of years old.  If you think that there is some simple "ideal" of a perfectly neutral speaker and that there is some technical means of measuring and approaching such ideal that takes out of the picture the maker making subjective decisions, then you have not been around people that actually make speakers.

I am aware of the objective approaches, such as the work of Floyd Toole and the National Research Council of Canada.  But, there are plenty of listeners who simply don't like the resulting sound (like me, for instance) and that is probably why there is such a broad array of choices that people make in buying speakers.  Likewise, there is a broad array of different speakers being offered by designers because they happen to like different sounds and voice their designs accordingly.  It is naïve to think that there is a one-size-fits-all measure of what is closest to the "ideal speaker" that has no voice of its own. 


Here is our challenge, at various price points of your choosing, tell us what comes closest to the no voice of its own.  I will really go out on the ledge here, I bet there will be a whole lot of folks that will disagree with those choices.

inna
5,245 posts
 
An ideal violin should have no voice of its own either - it should just be able to convey the music that is in the mind of the performer.
mikewerner
93 posts
 
OK. Thanks for your clarification of the point. 
What if you could have a dead neutral (not bright or strong, Merriam-Webster's definition) speaker with great equalization.
Then add lots of power - modern technology, you see.
Distortion from lots of assorted nasties engineered out - it's an ideal speaker, remember.
What then? Is it possible?
Are modern techniques ineffective at doing this. Pick something to measure about a speaker and then do it. 
MEASURE the response to the step function and improve it.
The voicing is a deviation from this.
Just think of it - the process of engineering! 

A violin is way different.

almarg's avatar
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almarg
8,673 posts
 
Pick something to measure about a speaker and then do it.
MEASURE the response to the step function and improve it.
The voicing is a deviation from this.
Just think of it - the process of engineering!
A violin is way different.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have no strong convictions either way about the subject that is primarily under discussion here. But as an electrical engineer I feel compelled to respond to this comment.

It always surprises me how non-engineers often and perhaps usually seem to view the process of engineering as being based primarily on measurements. While I can’t address speaker design specifically (my background is in the design of electronic circuits), in general the process of designing and developing an engineered product involves A LOT more than measurements. First there is the design process, done on paper and/or with computer-based software tools. That is often the most major part of the entire effort. Then extensive ANALYSIS is performed, on paper and/or with computer-based software tools. Computer-based simulations may also be performed. That is followed by fabrication and test of a prototype. Testing of the prototype, in the case of an audio component, will include both measurements AND LISTENING. Inevitably changes will be made to the design during those phases of the project, followed by further measurements and listening, and often additional iterations of the design, analysis, and simulation phases of the project.

In other words when it comes to development of an audio product, at least one that is properly done and is intended for audiophile (as opposed to mass market) applications, "voicing" is one of several integral and important parts of the overall engineering process. Not a deviation from the engineering process.

Regards,
-- Al

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