Help Picking a turntable


Hi Everyone,

Rod at my local store here where I buy my gear (unless I buy here at Audiogon) was at my house doing a master set for my speakers (they sound much better) and he suggested I consider getting a turntable and switching to records from cds to get better sound.  I am considering his suggestion but my biggest problem is that I don't know anything about turntables.  Rod recommended a turntable package from EAT that includes the arm, cartridge etc. for about $6,500, which is more than I want to spend.  He said he would look into turntables that are a bit less that would still sound good but I thought I would also check with everyone here to see if anyone had ideas also that I could discuss with Rod when I meet with him.  I'd like to stay under $3000 for the turntable package (turntable, arm, cartridge etc.). 

My current system is: Thiel 3.7 speakers; ARC REF 75 SE amp; ARC LS-17 SE pre-amp (I will also need a phono stage which I know will be in addition to the $3,000 I am willing to spend on the turntable package); analysis plus solo crystal oval speaker wire and interconnects.  Lastly, all of my music now is played through my Simaudio 280d DSD DAC (my cd player, computer etc are all hooked into the dac directly -- no wi fi). 

I'd appreciate any advice and suggestions to help educate me before I go down to Rod's store again and listen and meet with him.  As I said, I know nothing about turntables so any advice, suggestions etc. are very welcome.  Thank you all again in advance for your responses.     
Ag insider logo xs@2xgasherbaum
gasherbaum (the OP) wrote:
...I didn’t realize that different cartridges have different gain levels and some cartridges won’t work well with some phono stages. Yikes, I am a definite novice :)!!! In addition to the Boulder phono stage at $13,000, Rod at Soundings thinks a ARC PH9 would fit nicely and costs $7,500....

It can be overwhelming when getting iinto vinyl playback for the first time (or first time in a long time). So many ’tables, tonearms, cartridges, and phono stages. So many interdependencies complicating the quest for an ideal system match.

But you’ll make your situation much more difficult if you try to achieve a really high end playback rig on your first try. Most people who get to a $10-20K turntable, $1500-7500 cartridge, and $3500-10k phono stage didn’t do it on their first purchase; it came as the result of years (probably decades) of purchases, living with the rig for awhile, and then incrementally upgrading.

You’ll be much happier purchasing an affordable overachieving rig that gives you much if not most of the satisfaction you seek using components that are affordable and easy to live with.

That’s why I recommended the GEM Dandy Polytable and Shelter 201. Both are highly affordable overachievers. I’m particularly enamored with the Shelter 201 now that I’ve had a week to play with mine. It has no noticeable flaws, no peaky highs or murky mids or flubby bass. It has a surprising amount of dynamic range; it never feels polite or compressed. Best of all, and this makes finding a phono stage easier, it has a claimed 4 mV output but I think it may be higher. I had been using a high output moving coil cart (2.2 mV) and I had to turn the gain way down to match the output to the cartridge’s input. This in turn lowered the noise floor significantly, which may account for such a large dynamic range. A lower noise floor is always a good thing.

So far I have played *a lot* of records on this cart in a week, covering bombastic orchestral spectaculars, solo piano, direct-to-disk big band, chamber music, small combo jazz, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Diana Krall, Dire Straits, Boz Scaggs doing Great American Songbook standards, nylon string guitar-driven Latin jazz, acoustic bluegrass, ’60s instrumental pop with subtle background vocals, Miles Davis, etc., etc. The cart always sounds like it was designed for whatever music it’s playing at the moment.

A high output cartridge will simplify selection of your first phono stage. you can get a really good phono stage for high output cartridges for a lot less than one of the same quality level made to handle 0.2mV cartridge output.
I agree that most people don't "start" with a megabuck tt   or phono stage for that matter.....

I got the audio bug in the 1980s hearing a first generation Oracle Delphi in an audio shop, combined with ARC gear and Acoustic 2x2 used loudspeakers........on a classical piece of which I'll never know what it actually was, I felt I could just about crawl inside the cello......it was that pivotal moment all audiophiles can recall......and their wallets regret....

My turntables in succession:
Dual CS5000
Rega 1
Linn Axis
Acoustic Research ES1
Ariston RD11

Then I got out of vinyl for about 15 years

Upon returning to Vinyl, several years ago I got:

VPI Classic 1 w/ Benz Ace SL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVnFhnkrLTk
VPI Classic 3 w/ Lyra Kleos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rANy5pZJl7Q
Merrill 101.2 w/ Ortofon 12" arm, Arche headshell and Ortofon Cadenza Black as well as Ortofon Maestro Silver SPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctaIWCcz9LQ
Finally, I went back to VPI and got an HR-X which I am currently on.....
I have a 12.7 metal arm (yes I do think it's better than 3d, which I've also had) and I've ended my cartridge search for the moment with
the Transfiguration Proteus......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cJrj5DwwQ


The delight in VPI tables is their lack of finickiness......versus suspended tables.......the mass of the platter combined with a non suspended design creates what I'll call a large majestic sound.......

but it hasn't ended:

Based on an experience at the Chicago show listening to a suspended table......I just ordered:

Oracle Delphi MK VI Second Generation
Oracle SME V Tonearm
will stay with Transfig Proteus.....

I will be selling my 1 year old VPI HR-X soon to try the suspended flavor of Oracle and if it isn't to my liking, I'll probably just buy yet another HR-X......or I may just buy a wider rack and keep both......LOL

As to phono stage, going all the way back to the Classic 1, I've used the phono section in my Convergent Audio Technologies SL1 Renaissance Preamp........this is one of two components I'm absolutely sure will be my last in the category......the other is my Magnepan 3.7s  I added a Hashimoto HM7 based stepup for the extremely low output Proteus and it absolutely brought everything to life......so that's staying as well.....

As to HO MC, my experience has been the added coil weight isn't worth it, I would go to the king of the MM's the Ortofon 2M black, or a Grado statement..........if you opt for an MM phono stage.......
Boy oh boy - have you started a hornets nest with a hundred and one opinions. 
The Lenco boys will quote Arthur Salvatores article unti lthey are blue in their face.
The DD boys likewise with the SP10's - although I reckon the new SL1200 might be the best buy of the lot (meaning DD).
Try what I did and listen to as many decks as you possibly can - for a start it is really good fun - all have pro's and cons. Trust YOUR EARS and not others - not even reviews - just use them to identify potential products.
IMHO amongst those you ought to listen to, if only for mental notes - and in no order of preference:
1. Rega RP8, or RP10;
2. Linn Sondek (I wanted to dislike them unti l heard one with Funk Firm mods)
3. Project RP9
4. Townshend Rock (if you like them - you need to spend silly money to better its' particular blend of virtues)
5. Nottingham Analogue (very musical)
6. DPS (great timing)
7. Modified Lenco (great fun)
8. Garrard 301/401
9. Technics 1200 (new design)


Well here’s a suggestion out of left field. As it seems you’re not averse to purchasing something inexpensive to test the waters, why not something used. These are kind of rare so demand decent money but are well worth the asking price, and then some. These tables are so good you just might decide not to go any higher up the food chain.

The later top tier Kenwoods are something special, and look it too. Something like the KD770D, KD750, KD990, all are easily within budget and will leave money for a great cartridge.

No personal experience with any but the 770D, but all are similar enough I feel safe in recommending any one of them. Then there’s the legendary Kenwood L-07D, if you can find one, but most likely not within budget.

Below is a link to a picture of the 770D, I think you will like what you see. Then check vinylengine for the specs, again I think you will like what you see.

This is a big table, notice the platter compared to the rubber mat.

Martin

http://www.audioscope.net/images/kenwood_kd_770_d-3.jpg