Jazz for aficionados

Glad you liked the Metheny track, Orpheus. I followed Pat closely back in the ’80s but not for quite a while since then. Acman’s posting of "Acid Kiss" from The Cuong Vu Trio Meets Pat Metheny got me interested in what he is doing now - this Unity Sessions CD being some of his recent work. Worth reading about. Culmination of a lengthy tour (150 shows if I recall correctly) with this same outfit. Guess they were "honed" at that point. It seems a strong recording all through. Another potential "buy".

Ghosthouse, this is jazz that has progressed from "jazz jazz"; that's the music Wynton Marsalis and Rok want to hear until the end of time.

While the music they made in the 50's and 60's is fine with me, the musicians who try to duplicate it now, come up way short; it can not be done, and it sounds like what it is; an imitation of real jazz.

Although the new music is called "jazz" (you got to call it something) even the musicians don't like the word "jazz". They can call Pat Metheney's music what they like, and I will still like it; but Pat is human and I don't like all of his music, but I can't think of any musician that I liked "all" of their music.

Out of all the current musicians, he's at the top with any other musicians I can think of.


Enjoy the music.

*****  that's the music Wynton Marsalis and Rok want to hear until the end of time.*****

Along with the rest of the world.   I would bet "Kind of Blue" still out sells  the 'New Jazz' that has been inflicted on us recently.  And that was released in 1959.   That's 57 years ago!!!!   That's what is known as 'the proof is in the pudding'.

We should make a new rule for this thread.   When singing the praises of certain types of music, you should be required to state how many Lp / CDs of it do you own.

The Duke nailed it with the good and bad thing.   People will be listening to Miles and Mozart and folks like that, forever.

The soundtracks of movies and TV is a good place to find out what music is ingrained in this country's history.   It ain't the Jazz Pistols!!

Cheers

Reporting from 'rest of the world'.
 Imagine if all the people would listen to 'jazz jazz' and not the Jazz Pistols, for examp.
I bet some 'of us' would soon find some other stuff to enjoy....
I mean, all that 'plink plink' on guitars and 'doo boo daba dub' on horns, that got to become boring, at some point...
So, I say welcome to listeners of 'Jazz Pistols' or even Kenny G, or house or mtv music
Only with them around and their music, you got the chance to fully appreciate 'your stuff', what ever that might be...

****The Duke nailed it with the good and bad thing. People will be listening to Miles and Mozart and folks like that, forever.****

Duke’s often quoted comment is one of the simplest and most "to the point" comments ever uttered about music and one that I (not meaning to be self-serving) have quoted here at least two dozen times. However, I think our interpretation of the comment is sometimes, in fact, "self-serving" or, at least, incomplete and can be distorted to buttress our own preferences in music without acknowledging just how inclusive, imo, that comment was intended to be. Let’s put things in some sort of context:

First of all, while it is fitting to quote Duke’s comment on a thread about jazz, it should be pointed out that Duke was not the first prominent musician to be credited with that insightful comment. In 1863, while having a conversation with a colleague about ethnicity in music, the great Italian composer Gioachino Rossini is known to have said:

+++ My dear sir, there is no such distinction as you suppose between Italian, German and French music; there are only two kinds of music, good and bad. +++

It is quite possible that Duke, being the student of Classical music that he was, was inspired by Rossini’s well documented comment. This simple possibility adds weight to the truth in the comment; a Jazz musician may have been inspired by the comment of a Classical musician. But, back to Duke and since we are quoting Duke, let’s quote him some more:

+++ It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide where jazz starts or where it stops, where Tin Pan Alley begins and jazz ends, or even where the borderline lies between between classical music and jazz. I feel there is no boundary line. +++

+++ I don’t believe in categories of any kind, ((and when you speak of problems between blacks and whites in the U.S.A. you are referring to categories again)). +++

For further context let’s also remember that Duke was also the person who said:

+++ Bop is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing +++

He was a giant and musical genius....and still subject to personal bias.

I don’t believe that Duke was putting any style, genre, or historical constraints on the meaning of the comment. Iow, while I am sure he was a fan of Mozart and Miles, he was also a fan of Stravinsky and Bartok; composers who have been called "noise makers" here.

Given all of the above, I have no doubt that Duke would find "good" music in some of the "new jazz inflicted on us recently".  Well, probably not in "Kenny G. and house music" ☺️.  Musical giant that he was, he understood music on a much higher level than any of us ever will and while we would all like to think that our own individual and personal scope of what defines "good" music is "the truth", the "truth-truth" (pun) necessarily demands a deep understanding of much more than what we like or don’t like. As always, nothing wrong with stating that any one music or period in music is our favorite or even our "truth", but to make that a general truth for anyone but ourselves without a more comprehensive understanding of music including its technical elements (like Duke had in spades) and its relation and relevance to the time of its creation is pointless.

If we want to use record sales as an indication of "good" (I don’t), while it is true that KOB is the best selling jazz record of all time, take a look at this list of the best-selling Jazz records of all time (let’s also be honest and not forget the debates right here about wether KBO actually deserves the notoriety that it receives). The results of this survey may surprise some, but of note are the facts that, out of thirty four, fourteen are "Fusion" and Pat Metheny ties Miles with three, and Duke is nowhere to be found on the list.

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Rifugium/best_selling_jazz_albums_of_all_time__riaa___or_theres_no_mon...