Do I need Pro Logic IIx?

Duane very interesting post:

"B & W speakers need solid state amps that have a lot of decay in the bass but are clean."

How does one determine when an amplifier has alot of decay in the bass?

"For set up I place the right speaker against the wall firing into the room and move the left speaker into the room a 1/4" at a time until a bass note in the music I am playing sounds an octave deeper."

Very thorough, might be the way i'd setup a Sonus Faber speaker,

"This process of speaker setup takes about 5 hours."

Doing it the really hard way by Duane :), people pay you for this time? I need a sales course from you.

"I adjust the xover on the subs in 2 Hz increments and are usually riding between 24 and 32 Hz."

If the processor allows those increments....of course and you're way under utilizing the subs, even with b&W 800's setting the croosver to 50 hz splits 2 typical room modes and increase dynamic range, ps throw sock in the port when you do that..

"I move the center speaker until it locks in. Then I go around the room going between the left front and the left rear, then the right front with the right rear. The rears I move up, down, left, and right with in a range and find where it locks in."

Yeah that doesn't work bud, you're not associating the speakers correctly. Sumiko teach you that too?

I hope a lot of people that know me on here see this thread because they will vouch that

A. I don't read reviews nor use them to sell.

B. I recommend things I don't sell all the time and every week I tell someone that a certain product I carry that they want is not right for them or their system. Read my feedback.

C. Bass is directional except in the frequencies that are the room nodes because the whole room amplifies the sound.

D. I do set up theater systems like an Audiophile because the brain responds to unnatural tonal balance, phase shifts, and electronic and mechanical insufficiencies with listening fatigue.

E. My systems do have a sweet spot as does everything including the RPM on my car but with speakers that are very wide in dispersion you can walk around in the room and hear no holes and have good placement of sound effects.

F. Rives audio is a good company but if there is a problem or character to the sound that they can't verify with measurements then it doesn't exist.

G. I use a Sencore to verify performance to the customer and to record it for changes or service in the future. I cheat though because a flat system to a Mic is not the same as an ear. Even when I do large church sound systems I fine tune by ear.

H. I do follow Sencore and ISF on video calibrations because my eyes are not nearly as good as my ears.

I. If a speakers is well designed, the fronts and sometimes the center can run full range with better dimension and agile body to the bass. If this is the case, a true sub performs much better reproducing the air movement of the event and deep bass that is ambient noise whenever we are outside. This is what makes the walls disappear.

J. I did go to Sumiko but all they did was verify what a lot of us already knew. The 2 things they did teach me was that the movie directors and studios do care about sound quality and making events sound real and they showed me a teachable method for speaker setup that was just instinctive before.

K. My mentors that agree with me have many US patents and even 1 patent is very difficult to get.

Actually I forgot to keep looking back at the post and just rambled on, sorry.

Sound is sound regardless if it is a singer or a gun. The reason theaters can cheat and get away with a non audiophile approach is because everyone knows what a singer sounds like and very few people know what a plane crash sounds like.

In spite of my tone I am still having fun; I just like having these discussions in person or over the phone.

Duane

Well Duane,

To be honest your methods are several steps above average but one of your biggest handicaps is the equipment you choose to use as your reference, to me an expert is going to know what the best equipment is and to use Classe and their limited processors as your sword is to me a bit of a strike against you. They will not allow you to setup your system properly without great difficulty.

You would be shocked at whatI could do to your system after your 5 hours of setup. Your approach is why you don't believe bruceomega's excellent informative totally correct post on 7.1, because you treat every speaker as stereo pair, 7.1 messes you up because it is a three channel matrix like the front speakers.

In surround sound you should be a brand zealot because so few companies make quality surround products. Wide dispersion and quality wide dispersion are two seperate things as you indicate but how many companies actually make a solid center channel?

"Bass is directional except in the frequencies that are the room nodes because the whole room amplifies the sound."

Yeah that's not true, but if i teach you I'll have to charge.

"If a speakers is well designed, the fronts and sometimes the center can run full range with better dimension and agile body to the bass."

Very rare and expensive those speakers are, two subwoofers or 5 which I like personally will always be better because where the mids are great the bass is usually not very good.
This is a problem when the bass driver is attached to the midrange driver. So you might as well accept that reality before you walk in the door. Use your Sencore to measure the difference, my little cheapy system posted here on the gon is +/- 2 DB to 30hz if you ignore 1 very Hi-Q cancellation at 42 hz. No way you get that performance from a fullrange speaker.

Let me close in saying 1. I hope to be teaching a class on how to setup a surround system properly at the local community college this spring and its great to see someone trying hard to do it right!

My recommendation here, is that QUALITY ABOVE QUANTITY!!
Many people are more concered aboust subjects like 5.1 vs. 7.1 (or 6.1), SACD vs. DVDA, HD DVD vs. Blue Ray, Dipoles vs. Direct firing, and so on!!! The problem here is that the vast majority of these people never actually get a system that's setup for quality in the first place, and never get the maximum potential from their system's to begin with!
Give me quality (even 2 channel w/sub) over 7 channels of mediocre quality, poorly setup and un-calibrated system performance, ANY TIME!!!
If I were you, I'd work on the overall integrity of your system, as opposed to what signal tweaks/formats you're trying to get on your next processor purchase. That's my 2 cents anyway.
Infact, if It came down to buying used pre's on the market, I'd buy the likes of old quality sounding pre's WITH OUT DpII or IIx personally, like the krell HTS, before buying any receiver or sonically compromised pre/pro, with more bells and whistles personally. good luck

"Give me quality (even 2 channel w/sub) over 7 channels of mediocre quality, poorly setup and un-calibrated system performance, ANY TIME!!!"

I agree totally! EXCELLENT POINT!! BRAVO!

However, this statment looses it merit EXTREMELY fast when you have a good quality, correctly setup and calibrated 7 channel system. But thanks for your 2 cents anyway, Flrn. ;)