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Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

- Vinyl newbie and need some help

- Friend has a brand new  Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?

- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.

- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load

- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.

- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.

- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention

- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks

more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)

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I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC. 

This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable. 

A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor. 

I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a  used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a  van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.

I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
  
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.

As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!

Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.

Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160

- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas

- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.

This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward 

** Back Ground info**

** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak

** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.

** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key  but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.

** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.

To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.

Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)




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fsmithjack OP
605 posts
 
I do like the idea of learner more about matching the entire chain - not something I ever really considered. My Bricasti M1SE run via balanced IC's to Levinson No.326s preamp balanced to my Pass X350.5 never had to worry about enough voltage gain and worrying about any of that but I see how the .15 needs more gain to make it all work via my Magico S5's. Thats cool info. Just wasn't on my radar so great info for me.

Just as a simple rule of thumb with this gear and now not using a SUT and of course my VPI runs via single ended but the No.326s says it converts everything to real balanced out which seems kind of cool.

What min voltage will allow full access to all my gain. .3 or .6 or somthing like that? Just curious because I have no idea how to calculate it or how you did and vaguely understand it but only because I have never had to think about it but I like to learn about better understanding this.

Thank you  
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fsmithjack OP
605 posts
 
Might need some advice / help / tips on mounting my cart? Is there simple rule of thumb or technique  I can use or do I need spend hours reading how to stumble though the Rega Arc Baerwald protector found on Vinyl Engine and HiFi News’ Analogue Test Record? It just seems daunting for a newbie like me? This part takes the fun away. I am sure once I have done it and get a feel for it then all will be well but I don't even know what I don't know. Once you know what you don't know things always get easier and was just wondering if there is anyway to help slim down the learning curve. 
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,149 posts
 
When you have a spare minute set yourself up a simple gain-cascade spreadsheet that you can play around with (the math is 10 to the power gain in any step/20, where gain is in dB)

In practice it usually only matters in the pre to power step, that’s assuming you are not overloading an input at any prior stage. If you find you are operating the volume control at 75% of range or more you may be tight on gain. Also it’s a good idea to match gain between sources so that you don’t suddenly switch from one to the other and blow your speakers. Many modern preamps allow you to adjust sensitivity at the inputs for just this reason. Also many digital components have adjustable output levels for the same reason.

Finally be aware that many manufacturers do not implement balanced outputs well and a single ended connection may sound better. This is certainly the case with my DCS stack, it sounds notably better connected single ended (using exactly the same brand and length of cable) - you should check if this is the case with your Bricasti, don’t assume that they have done balanced well
folkfreak's avatar
folkfreak
1,149 posts
 
Regarding setup of the cart you MUST invest in a decent tool, something like this would be the minimum I recommend
https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/pro-ject-align-it-cartridge-alignment-gauge

There are many other similar setups that can cost a whole lot more but do not try and do it with some flimsy paper wotsit printed off the net

fsmithjack's avatar
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fsmithjack OP
605 posts
 
Thank you Folkfreak - I appreciate it. 

I truly am swimming in the deep end with crazy vinyl hobby. Man is there a lot to learn. Holly smokes.

OK guys read below the line below:

Check this out. I was googling and reading about the Denon S1 Cart and came across this on Audio Circle - very smart people talking about the S1 and how matching to a proper built phonostage and loading the cart and the capacitance of the cables matters and are important because this is such a unique cart that seems to pose so odd balance challenges and i hardly understand it. I mean I can follow it but not sure I could ever employ any of this knowledge without at least partial translation into to newbie language from others.

Read this info I just read - I copy and paste from Audio Circle:

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 Audio Circle: Denon S1 and preamp considerations on: 16 Sep 2011, 09:58 pm »

First a little background - A few members here, participated in a group review of the DL-S1 on another forum. That thread is probably no longer there but it was very interesting, at least for the participants. While most of the reviewers has great results and thought it to be a wonderful cart, two of us had mixed feelings. I had a lot of trouble nailing down the the right load. I started out around 300 ohms, varied it up and down somewhat but couldn't get entirely satisfactory performance. On acoustic music it sounded as if there was a distortion that emphasized the overtones. It gave everything a goosed up sound that became fatiguing. I wasn't able to resolve that and finally mailed it to John TCG, for the next evaluation.

The DL-S1 is rather unusual in that it has 0.15mV output and 30 ohms impedance. It also tracks light, something like 1.3g, if I remember correctly. It has an aluminum cantilever and a special elliptical stylus. On an Audiogon thread there was a discussion about cantilevers and the DL-S1 was mentioned. Johnathan Carr (designer of Lyra carts) came on and mentioned that some aluminum cantilevered carts have extended response, and all of them do not resonate within the audible band. In response to my mentioning these loading problems, his response:

>The current DL-304 and DL-S1 are somewhat unusual.

>They also have very low output and 30 or 40 ohm impedance!

That is because the coil former is non-permeable, and therefore, rather inefficient in terms of generating electrical output from physical motion. But in return for that inefficiency, they avoid the distortions that all permeable cores inflict. All MMs and MIs have this distortion. So do most MCs that offer relatively high output voltage in comparison to their impedance. So do Raul's beloved step-up transformers (^o^). But non-permeable core MC cartridges like the DL-S1, FR-7, JVC L-1000, Benz-Micro Ruby et al, don't.

>Results seem very system dependant.

A cartridge like the DL-S1 prefers to have as few electrical contacts between itself and the phono stage input as possible, and a v-e-r-y good phono stage. In this sense, their requirements are no different from any other low-output MC. A little bit more extreme in degree, that is all.

That's interesting. I didn't know why those Denons had such high impedance and minuscule output. Some more considerations:

A "forgiving" phono stage is not what I would recommend for the DL-S1, nor for that matter, any other LOMC. The obviously desirable properties for a good MC phono stage are high gain, low noise, high immunity to RF, high overload margins (which implies high maximum output levels), and minimal deviation from the RIAA curve. Low capacity within the input stage benefits resolution and sound quality, but this partly conflicts with the requirement for low noise, so the phono stage designer must keep a sense of balance and trade offs.

One more critical requirement IMO is low capacitance between cartridge and phono stage, with the tonearm cable being the biggest contributor. The signal coils of the cartridge possess inductance, and this will react with any capacitance between the cartridge and phono stage to create a big resonant peak at ultrasonic frequencies (frequently in the RF range). This peak is much higher in frequency than any human can hear, but it can upset the circuitry of a phono stage that hasn't been designed with adequate consideration to RF or high-frequency overloading. This is eminently capable of of causing IMD at a much lower frequency, and this you can hear. This kind of IMD is quite obnoxious to the ear, since it is non-harmonically related to the LP signal, and therefore can sound outright dissonant.

Reducing the input impedance at the phono stage helps squash the RF resonant peak and thereby can reduce the phono stage's IMD that the ear finds so grating, but in return such heavy loading throttles the dynamics, transients and low-level resolution of the cartridge. Far more advantageous, IMO, to use a phono stage that doesn't need for the cartridge to be throttled down to make it listenable.

A phono stage designed according to this philosophy should have the side-effect of making records sound more quiet, because ticks and pops and tracking distortions will simply be treated as normal signals, and will not trigger circuit misbehavior.

FWIW, I have never had the need to load down any cartridge to under 100 ohms, for any phono stage that I have designed, and believe that I could afford considerably higher loading than 100 ohms with the DL-S1.

The loading situation with LOMCs is very different from MMs and MIs, where capacitance is needed to properly tailor the frequency response.

I note that some designers of MC cartridges and phono stages use quite massive amounts of capacitance to roll-off any ultrasonic peak from the coil inductance-cable capacitance resonant peak, but personally I have found this approach to take away more than it gives.

So there you have it. The loading down with < 100 ohms came from somebody on Asylum who loads it at 30 ohms. You lose half the output doing that. I didn't go below 100. My AHT phono has almost no capacitance. If I knew the situation I could have gotten a couple of caps and tried that. That overtone thing I heard was probably IMD. I guess system dependent was right after all. Now I think I know why.

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Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart?
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