Jazz for aficionados

It's not the note you play that is the wrong note, It's the note afterwards that makes it right or wrong. 

Miles

That quote was right on time Acman.

While I'm not a musician, I can tell you what I've witnessed; big time jazz musicians came to St. Louis, some time alone, and collected what was called a "pick up band". How they selected these musicians, maybe Frogman knows, I don't; but what I have seen is the fact that they gathered as short a time as 1 hour before the performance, and discussed what was supposed to go down.

When show time came, they performed like they had been playing together forever; nothing but spontaneous "hard bop"; improvisation all night long. While the lead man carried the bulk of the load, each sideman had to carry his share as well. Every night, the crowd, one that was geared specifically to improvisational "hard bop" was mesmerized.

What I have described is akin to what Miles talks about that went on at "Mintons" in his autobiography. I said "akin" because this wasn't a jam session, they were supporting the lead man, and his music in a fashion that good sidemen are capable of.

The guys you were talking about knew the same, probably Blues based cords. Thats why you here them say something like blues in C and count off the rhythm. They may not know the song, but they can play with each other. Remember Bird getting laughed off stage before "Woodshedding", and coming back the best player.

I remember Lightnin Hopkins had trouble playing with others because he played music the way he taught himself, so a lack of universal language.


Just a small part of the basics you need to "hear" before you can improvise, over chords change. Some are gifted in different areas of course, so some areas are easier than others.



http://www.dummies.com/art-center/music/music-composition-for-dummies-cheat-sheet/

Thats what I'm talking about!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvNMbbNdWEk

O-10, as I have said many times previously I admire that you put jazz musicians on such a high pedestal; and deservedly so. Jazz obviously reaches you on a very deep and personal level and that’s a beautiful thing. But the achievement of jazz musicians in the area of expression or ability to reach the soul of the listener is no greater than that of a great Classical musician and I don’t understand the need to knock one down in order to build up the other; at least that’s how it seems.

Excellent comments by rok, pryso and acman3; and very accurate. Some further thoughts and sorry for the long post; but if you’re going to tell me that I am “totally wrong”.....😎...all in good fun.

The often referenced account of Miles “fixing” Herbie’s “mistake” is interesting, but as with many things “Miles” it has been somewhat overblown because, while it certainly is not an “easy” thing to do, it really is the kind of thing that all musicians do all the time to varying degrees and in different ways. Herbie played a “wrong” note in a chord; wrong as defined by being a deviation from the “strict and predetermined framework of harmony” that comprised whatever tune they happened to be playing. Miles heard that wrong note (as most good musicians would) and incorporated that note in his improvised solo. That is exactly what Rok described, and he also pointed out they were not “starting from zero and making something up”; it simply doesn’t work that way. In this case it was an astute musical reaction/interaction by Miles in the realm of the harmony of the tune. Fundametally, this is really no more impressive than what a concert pianist has to do in the realm of rhythm during a performance of, say, a piano concerto with orchestra by having to react and “adjust” to varying tempo changes, very subtle or large, by the players in the orchestra; or even having to react and adjust to a mistake by a player or conductor while still making it all sound seamless. Yes, those mistakes do happen. Unless we are talking about “free jazz”, a jazz musician has to memorize the harmonic progression of a tune, know the form of the tune and understand harmony in a very deep way that allows him to compose a solo that makes sense; and that, like most what we are touching on here, is just scratching the surface. Acman3’s description re your experience with watching those bebop players just show up a play together is very good and, as concerns this topic, analogous to, say, an “All Star” baseball game. They may have never played together before, but they speak the same language; a “language” that had to be learned. The musicians had all learned the frameworks of the various tunes.

O-10, there has to be a willingness to understand some basics about the music making process for any of this to make sense. Most of these basics are what pryso correctly referred to as the “tie” between jazz and Classical (and any genre, really). My observation is that you have an aversion to understanding any of these basics because (I think) you feel that somehow going to that place detracts from the emotional part of the experience and somehow shortens the pedestal that you put jazz musicians on. All I can say is that it doesn’t. As always, no problem if you’re not interested in going there; we all approach listening to music differently and have different emotional agendas for its place in our lives.

Speaking of Herbie and Rok’s recent mention of Gershwin. While I always hesitate to speak about my personal professional experiences perhaps this may help, in a roundabout way, illustrate some of what we are talking about re jazz vs classical musicians and the fact that while they are different disciplines in some ways they share a lot of common ground as far as fundamental musical values are concerned. Both disciplines come from the same place as concerns emotion which seems to be the point of contention.

Over the last few years it has become very “in vogue” in the Classical concert scene for jazz pianists to appear as soloists playing Gershwin’s “Rhapsody In Blue” for piano and orchestra; one of the most popular works in orchestral music. Also related to Rok’s earlier comment about Gershwin and Third Stream is that while the piece, as composed and as traditionally performed, has no improvisation, this new “approach” to Rhapsody is for the jazz piano soloist to improvise during some of the extended solo sections that do not include the orchestra. I have had the privilege of being part of performances of this piece with various orchestras with four well known jazz pianists, Herbie, Makoto Ozone, Marcus Roberts and Chick Corea. No name dropping intended and I was a just a humble player in the orchestra. Now, it is generally acknowledged by musicians and critics (for whatever that may be worth) that with very few and rare exceptions these “experiments” with Rhapsody fall flat and dismally at that. Why? Two main reasons. One could point to the fact that, inevitably, the soloist strays too far away from the style of the music as intended by the composer (Gershwin) and the piece loses coherence. Interestingly, it was Marcus Roberts who did the best job of improvising within the style of Gershwin. However, that wasn’t the most glaring problem with the performances and what is usually cited; and here is the punchline of where I am going with all this. All four are great piano players (duh!). They all played all the correct notes as written on the page and played them with great technical skill. But, and this is a big but, compared to what a great Classical soloist can do with the written parts of that work the jazz payers all sounded somewhat stiff, hesitant to a degree, and emotionally flat. Great jazz players falling short in the very area that is being suggested is the purview of jazz players. Obviously no disrespect intended toward these amazing players; only meant to point out that a classical pianist who understands that language on a higher level than a jazz musician and who perfected that particular discipline can do a better job of doing justice to the music and touching the listener on an emotional level.  Just as a good jazz player can do a better job with a jazz tune than a classical musician can.