Thiel Owners

Eventually I hope to have upgrade paths for various legacy Thiel products that Rob can supply.

Haha, I can see it now. I'll get my pair dialed-in then you and Rob will come out with a kit for the 2.4s. There is no end to audiophile nervosa!

the buyer gets what he gets with myriad value judgements / assumptions bundled in the mix. It is not for the faint of heart; the process will lead to critical listening / comparison and then value engineering assessment to assure that the gains are solid / uncompromised and the costs are no more than necessary

Just picking the caps for the SE version probably took Jim Thiel and his team many days and weeks, never mind the initial design. Choose worthwhile candidate caps (this is what I'm doing), burn them in for a week or two, conduct careful listening tests/comparisons, probably measurements, too. Being a buyer, not a manufacturer, I don't have the time and money to try multiple combinations. Moreover, manufacturers are *highly* motivated to get the very best sound possible, albeit balanced by cost (except for Wilson and the like for which crazy prices are built into brand expectation).

In my case, my SEs sound superb but I also know there probably are gains to be had with tricked-out XOs. I paid ~$3K for my used pair and I think they sound as good as anything new up to ~15K. What if there is a relatively inexpensive way to make them sound as good as anything new up to $30K?

As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, I think Thiel made some of the best drivers in the business. IMO, the main thing that separated Thiel SQ from that of the very best was attention to the passive parts. Tom Thiel wrote that it wasn't that Jim Thiel was unaware or disbelieving of ultra caps and the like, just that he wanted to balance SQ against cost so that more people could afford his creations. And I am grateful because I am one who can afford Thiels. Not much if they were tweaked like this:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=5464

I suspect a CS7.2 or CS3.7 with a cost-no-object XO would sound pretty much as good as anything I've heard. But something like that Dueland-capped XO would probably add $20K retail, more than a pair of CS7.2 or CS3.7!

Tom Thiel has been very generous with his knowledge and sdecker shared his successful experience of re-capping his CS2.4s. This is a project I'm confident I can complete and with good results. I will certainly report back on this thread in hopes of helping other DIYers.

This thread is a great example of why brands like Thiel that stay on top of the cost/performance tradeoff are likely to have better products than the cost no object "luxury" brands like Wilson or magico at any price points where they compete.  A lifetime of value judgements and performance oriented engineering vs primarily just putting the most expensive parts in a box made of something exotic is bound to result in much better performance for the money.  

brands like Thiel that stay on top of the cost/performance tradeoff are likely to have better products than the cost no object "luxury" brands

I agree but still wish that Thiel had a full-out assault on SOTA speaker. Not that I could ever hope to afford such a product but it probably would have informed new, cost-effective ways to coax (pun intended) even more performance from the 1s, 2s, and 3s. Maybe Jim Thiel had this in mind (cs7.3?) but left this Earth far too early.

At Parts Connexion, retail pricing for a Clarity SA 15 uF is ~$20 and 33uF is ~$46. *Every* CS2.4 could have had SA caps for, maybe, an extra $200 retail (tbf, I don't know that the SAs were available when the 2.4 was developed). No doubt Jim Thiel had very good reasons for his design decisions and I shouldn't second guess those decisions. But, IMO, an extra $500-2000 retail in better passive parts for the 2s and 3s could have elevated their performance to the next tiers. I'm going to test that speculation!

Pruning a brand niche is a very delicate endeavor. Imagine the confusions that result from differing implementations of various products within a brand. I will share that in the development of the CS5 in the late 80s, I wanted to go farther out on the quality limb and market that product in the $20K market (actually introduced at $9700 / pair.) I believe its ultra implementation would have been more than competitive at $20K. BUT, where does such a move leave the line / other products, niche reputation, etc? Perhaps two quality ranges? etc. etc. etc. As a small company, we couldn't cope with the variables. Toyota marketed their upmarket offerings in the USA as Lexus: same idea: different dealers, different image, different cost/performance ratios.

I have bought some nifty analysis software to guide me in this upgrade thing. I hope to find time to develop some solutions. The learning curve is cumulative, what is learned is applicable to other products. My first, stop is my PowerPoint 1.2s, upgraded via beetlemania's cap direction, coil replacement with legacy Thiel six-9s coils and wire, all in outboard XOs, and vetted with Metric Halo's SpectraFoo analysis software.

BUT, where does such a move leave the line / other products, niche reputation, etc?

Yes, tough decisions and I have no business armchair quarterbacking Thiel's choices. Speaking of the CS5, I recall reading on AudioAsylum that Charles Hansen regarded the 5 as Thiel's best model with the 3.7 a "close second". I'm curious to hear a pair.

I just took a look inside my CS2.4s. It was easier than I imagined (I was worried about getting the radiator back in) although a contortion is required to remove the radiator. From Rob Gillum:

To access the crossover, you must remove the passive radiator screws and let the passive radiator drop into the cabinet. It can be rotated 90 degrees, and removed while servicing. To re-install the passive radiator, you can place your fingers at the surround, pressing outward to hold in place while re-installing the screws that hold bit in place.

I discovered that the 33uF cap on the woofer is only 100V, not 630. This opens up the 33uF CSA 250V as a direct replacement, no bypass needed to get the correct capacitance, and for only $75 for a pair. I guess I could add a 0.01 ultra if I want to go crazy.

Also, I think I have room for most of the options I'm considering on the coax board. If I wanted a 10uF Supreme to match a 18uf CSA, however, I might have to mount the board a bit lower as that cap is 4cm longer than the CSA. From the top edge of the 28uF SA as seen here: http://www.hifishock.org/gallery/speakers/thiel/cs2-4se-2-thiel/
there is about 18 cm to the cabinet wall (just past the bottom of the board as seen in the image). Most of my Clarity options should fit with a bit of stacking. Additional protrusion into the cabinet is moot given the fiberglass bat on the two boards. The extant 14uF SA abuts the 6mH coil but I imagine the coil's orientation prevents deleterious interference. In my case, I will need to place a cap even closer to the coil although probably a shorter cap that should provide a gap to the coil.

Also, the boards easily unscrew from the cabinet and there is enough slack in the wiring to provide extra room to access the leads. Finally, it doesn't seem like a huge project to take everything outboard altho' I think I can fit everything internally. Looks straight-forward. Maybe I'll do this project sooner than April?