Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio
Some people, it appears, have placed themselves in a box or have allowed the walls to be erected around them over time where they can only see things one way and those who approach a topic from a different perspective are wrong, no matter what their observations and experiences reveal to them.

We have a stable of posters here who are science addicted.  I guess I've been in this hobby so long (45 years) that I've experienced changes within my system that science might have a hard time fitting into its paradigm. If you think about it, this whole audio endeavor is experiential and thus an empirical experience.  Whether I have science to explain, for example, the height, width and depth of my system's soundscape matters not at all to me.  I just want to put my feet up and let the music take me away. 

Hi cleeds & kosst

One thing that I hope you guys and others learn about me is, I’m a sponge. I love learning a little bit more from all you guys every day I can make it up here. My mind is all about the variables of audio, it has been since I was a little kid. I have never looked at another listener as wrong. To me you guys are the masters of your own hobby. The only thing I do that may be a little different is explore on more of an extreme level. Almost every day of my life has either been in the studio, on tour, in my listening rooms or shops, and your listening rooms (generally speaking). Go read a review on me. What you will find is me setting up and tuning in someone’s system. It’s all I’ve ever done. I’m just crazy about this hobby. I get down on HEA, but my love for the soundstage is my specialty. I simply love exploring music and making it.

So yes, please do. If you see one of my threads and you have a point to make, make it. I may see it a little different or encourage Tuning, pushing it every chance I get, but that’s who I am. I do nothing but make music 24/7 and learning from you guys is like treasure to me. I may ask you "now did you try this, or just talking about it" but try to remember I don’t take it lightly and if I haven’t tried it, I’m going to based on your suggestions. That’s the way I’ve always been. I believe in all the variables.

So thanks, I hope we all become friends.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

oh HiFi  "I just want to put my feet up and let the music take me away."

yeah man, you got it!

To all of the contributors, I have only begun exploring this "hobby" since retiring and have had a few false starts trying to find out what it was I wanted to do in retirement. I spent 35 years with my nose in engineering, traffic engineering actually, making cars come into the city in the morning and getting them home at night. Do you realise how many billions it costs a cities industry to keep the roads moving per DAY? It was the most thankless job anyone could do because the only thing a driver sees is a red light or the bumper of the stopped car ahead, and don't they bitch about it! I would guess 99% of you have almost every day. Was there thanks? Only when there was a requirement the get the American President from AF1 to the Governor's House in a 30 car, 20 motorcycle precession, non stop, green all the way and no traffic ahead. Security took months of planning, my job took 30 minutes because I could do it so well. And I taught my 12 engineers and the traffic management 24/7 group to do it (sort of because they were primarily call/complaint takers). Every day I drive on the road I look at the traffic signals thinking how I could improve the flow. Every day I drive.

My body finally gave up and I have had a major joint replacement or back surgery every year since 2013. 5 back surgeries since 2000 and now have cancer.

Where am I going with this? This (and other forums) are my lifeline to my adopted hobby. I realised in the 60's how much I liked music. But family, job and dedication left no time. Now I have time, I have to recreate my life out of the engineering job I had. Even after 2 years out of it, I had a major manufacturer ring me yesterday to ask if I could fix a problem for them. A commercial company ring one person in the whole of Australia. I am still thinking whether I'll take them up on their cry for help. It's costing them millions from sales.

Where was I ? Yes, I look to this forum, each contributor to learn from. I hate the spite and sarcasm that appears, but we are all individuals with our own way of imparting experiences, or expression of ideas, pro or con.

Michael, I think this is a great way of passing and exchanging experience and knowledge to those who already know or those people who want to know more of the subject. There is so much to equipment, the way each individual component interconnects with the next, to finally come out as music. Then there is the way we want to hear it individually. How to set up a room. What cables work best, cleaning. There is so much, only restricted by budget, appreciation of what you are hearing and how to get the best out of it. Appreciate Picasso and Da Vinci. Two painters with different styles to be appreciated of their own. 

I always pointed my front speakers to focus together just beyond my wife's and my chairs. I took chance and pointed them about 6 degrees out to the side walls and opened up a whole new room of sound!

Learning, what we read, we learn, for good or bad, that's up to us, but this forum is for us to impart, exchange and learn.

(Sorry for the big diatribe...) Adrian

Michael, I think this is a great way of passing and exchanging experience and knowledge to those who already know or those people who want to know more of the subject.    Learning, what we read, we learn, for good or bad, that's up to us, but this forum is for us to impart, exchange and learn.

Well said.  Methinks too often people get stuck in the weeds and forget the true purpose of a forum such as this.  Tuneland may be the exception but in general, HEA forums are no different from other online places where the exchange of ideas and learning e.g. astrophotography, photography, etc. the participants generally loose focus and go off the deep end.   No one started out in this hobby an expert.  They had to learn from those that came before.  
This discussion has been enlightening. One particular idea that hit home with me is tuning a system to negate what is at first thought of as a bad recording. I've done this. But I won't anymore. I just want to listen and enjoy music most of the time. Let me point out that I tweek everything. None of my stereo equipment has avoided modifications. But when it's time to listen I want to enjoy the music and not have to adjust to maximize every recording I choose. I recently returned a MOFI LP to music direct. It sounded off. The replacement was excellent. Should I have kept the first one and changed my system to suit the recording each time I played it?  I used to do that. Maybe grab a different cartridge and get it setup. That's about 10 minutes between recordings, right? I guess I lost the patience for that. 
I realize I didn't comment on your main question. That's because I don't have an answer (or a theory or a hypothesis). I can't even explain why some people respond with anger or animosity or disinformation to everything these days.  If they get something out of that I can't fathom it. 
Good luck in your quest to understand others in this hobby...or anywhere.