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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


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geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
14,147 posts
 
Why wouldn’t car stereos sound very good? They are battery powered, the speakers have no complex crossovers, there are no real “room acoustics issues,” the car is isolated from seismic vibrations by a pneumatic isolation system (shock absorbers) and the CD player buffers the data.
jdane
2 posts
 
I'm lucky to be on a budget--after a few thousand dollars, my hands begin to shake, I feel very unhappy, and all music sounds crappy to me.  Therefore, I cannot test whether a $10,000 amp sounds 'better' than my $500 ones.   But (at least back when stereo stores existed), I could compare various components in admittedly flawed tests (as close to 'single-blind' as I could get), either in the store or at home.  Thus I was able to reject things where I could hear no difference (cables, etc.).  Of course psychology plays a large part (as does, alas, progressive hearing loss)--but since I'm doing the listening, it doesn't matter what is objectively better.  If the tube-glow makes the sound 'more warm' to me, fine.  Also, the room environment (high wooden ceilings vs. 8' apartment stucco, speaker placement) makes far more difference than any equipment I can afford.  

That said, I am a firm believer in single/ or double blind studies, which should be used for audio whenever possible.  I don't think you can really test 'good sound' vs. 'bad sound' that way, but you can certainly test (1) whether there are objective sonic differences, and (2) whether those sonic differences are detectable by human ears. 
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

"We can read about audio and tuning as much as we want and it will not tell us if we will enjoy music on whatever system is being written about. The only way to know is to listen. Why not get a room at one of the audio shows and set up a $1,000 system that blows away all the high-end systems and makes every recording sound good, no, not just good, awe inspiring, to everyone who hears them. That would be doing us all a great service. Writing threads about how the high-end is dead and tunable systems are what we really need, not so much."

Hi Tom

I do a tunable setup every year (since 2005) here in Vegas during the CES. This last CES I had a full Tunable Room and system showing off strip. We were at AXPONA 2017 too, but because the setup time was so short the guys didn’t have a chance to setup the whole package. Some folks might recall "TuneVilla" which was covered by several magazines. Well the "place" (TuneVilla & TuneLand) has been around since 1989 in different locations in the US.

This year I’ve rented space just off the strip that we’re thinking about converting, after I’m done using it for the wood curing, to have a tunable setup on the strip for folks to stop by and have fun. It’s close to Sahara and LVBD, so it’s very close to the convention center. The shows are cool, but the time period really isn’t enough so folks can come in and relax while they explore tuning with me, or on their own. Another cool thing about this location is, is right on the edge of the Vegas Arts District.

So yes, as the OP states it can’t just be Talk, it’s also has to be Walk in order for folks to understand.

thanks for you post

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


lak's avatar
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lak
3,516 posts
 
I'm sorry I came late to the party a lot has already been said and discussed but I wanted to say one thing. If one has not listened to a product regardless of what it is perhaps they should not state their opinion regarding it. Lots of debates going on due to the opposite happening here on Audiogon. Ya, I know its America and we have the freedom of free speech...  ;-)
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

Hi Jdane

Yep, when the audio shops across the US went under it changed the landscape of HEA and the hobby in general. And it happened so fast. Folks on this thread have mentioned the need to experience tuning first hand, and in the mid 1990's we (MGD/RoomTune) were building tunable rooms inside of stores. It looked like things were on track for the industry to have a "method of listening", but then the mom & pops just couldn't hang on to their stores and compete against the internet.

Tuning isn't new to HEA, it just came along when the market place was beginning their transition from live spaces to on-line sells.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

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