In my very amateur experience, that the room is the ultimate user soundboard is a fact; I believe that designers engineer with specific rooms in mind; a "soft or quiet system (QED, Creak, even Sugden) does better in a "hard room" e.g. full plaster, lots of wood, high ceilings, (older European-style buildings), whereas a "bright or aggressive system would need gyp rock walls and perhaps some rug; this is even before any tweaking that can be done by placing absorbent or reflective structures in the room to compensate and balance the room; even a terrible asymmetrical space can be balanced by structure placement. Another major determining factor is how well the components work together: not the money you spend but the complementarity of the units among themselves and then that whole with the room.
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
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Well first of all I can attest that the OP here is purely getting into an understanding that a bad recording heard is not as what it seems be. Others may find that its not sounding good in thier system because it was a bad or a poor recording, but instead it could also be because the system is not working hand in hand with your surroundings. I can tottaly understand others may find this awkward based on each and everyones listening experience as I was too. Only after I started toying around with what Michael was saying I began to understand deeper what was happening. Now my previous setup was located in my living room and I was having mixed feelings with what I was listening. Some cds played sounded amazing but the rest just sounded bad and lifeless. As I have mentioned on my previous post listening in my car audio setup it was the other way round those same recordings that bad and lifeless now sounds great. This got me thinking about what is wrong with my home setup. Well going around and reading all over the net and audio forums also on acoustic books did gave me some improvments but never the kind of amazing sounding system that I wanted. It was only until I stumbled upon Michael's website which initially seemed to be confusing as I couldnt wrap my head around on what he and other tunes were saying. Well this got me more and more interested as some of the topics discussed was actually what i felt that was lacking in my system. Long story short I registered in his forum and started posting up my questions to Michael who then began to lead me step by step on what to do first and the next step after. It was about voicing my listening area and mapping out on what he calls as pressure zones. Now based on his directions I followed with an open mind towards his methodes. As I started doing it, I was then only able to get a better picture on what he meant by pressure zones and laminar flows. To me it was one of those "aha" moments lol! Now there are no short cuts as this requires you to get up and start talking around the room while listening to how the tone of your voice changes and vibrations that resonates within you. The next step was to understand why those sounds change and how to use them to your advantage. Its hard for me to explain untill you start doing it and experience it yourself. But when I started doing it based on Michael's suggestions he started introducing me some basic tools that was readily available like cardbord and wooden planks. Initially I was skeptical as it was something that I never read nor heard off. So I did as what he asked for and started placing them around my listening space. What I experienced next was shocking, my soundstage grew bigger, holographic and presence was amazing. It was literally like I was having a new life in my system. My next immediate responce was to try out those cds that sounded bad previously. Needless to say they sounded amazing, at last my faith in my system and this hobby was fully restored. I know many of you guys here have amazing systems and have invested your hard earn money to push those boundries for a perfect sounding system. Im also sure many of you have also done a great deal of effort to maximize your acoustics too of course based on WAF if your system is based in a common room. But there's more that can be done before thinking of upgrading to gain a better sounding system or even resorting to other methods that may require bigger expenses. Im one for sure who will work on every inch of my room regardless how long or hard it takes as I have expereinced something that no equipments nor speakers could weigh in especially when it comes to price to performance ratio. |
One point for any listener is they have to know themselves. They have to know what they really like and want. Way to many folks really have no idea what they want. They just sort of make noises like 'good sound'. or 'like music should sound'. Which really means they are just spouting what they read or were told to say.(only as an example I like HF clarity. a LOT. So much so I can give up other stuff for it. And I do not like too much bass, which some folks think is the be all end all.) As for the theory folks vs the practical experience folks... Different ways of seeing and interpreting the World. The most obvious are cable threads. Particularly the theory arguments in power cord threads. Some folks do not care about any theory, they do the test and say it is better. Others cannot fathom bothering since THEORY says it cannot matter, and thus the person making the claims is just deluded... And on it goes. |
Good afternoon Agon Hope you folks got in some fun listening last night. The last couple of days I’ve been in Phil Keaggy land and love it. It’s exciting to hear an artist grow from their early message on through the years as they mature musically and their views. Phil is a rock and knows how to rock both. Visiting one of his guitar makers years ago was a joy for me, and being with Phil in person is a treat. After I got some work done today I came back to Prof’s posts and read through my OP again. I must admit I got no further along in answering Prof than I did before. The OP to me and others is crystal clear. Picking it apart and trying to read my attitude or hidden message to be decoded, simply would have to be in the hands of the individual interpreter. I don’t want to start trying to bend the post, or any of my posts, into meaning beyond what they are. I’m glad that TJ visited us again because he is a great example of what it is like beginning in the tune and working his way through becoming the master of his own system through using the tune. Following that up with Elizabeth’s post is perfect for this thread. Fact is, if you are sitting there with a stock system in a living room and nothing else, there is another level to your hobby if you wish to take a hold of it. Talking your way around why your not going to take a step is the opposite from ultimate listening practices. It’s not meant to be a slam on anyone, but an invitation into a more profound hobby. People are going to say "I'm happy where I am" and we say "good". We're not unhappy for you that you have found a great place in your hobby, that would silly. At the same time that's a choice. Can you go further if you choose" absolutely. There is a division in this hobby and it’s not one that is meant to be dividing with malice, condensation, discrediting or marginalizing of anyone. The division is made by all of us as individuals, it’s a choice. Do I take that next step in componentry or do I look for a method that pulls my whole hobby together? It’s not about WAF or any other reasons why not to, it’s about taking a look at what listening is beyond the articles, ads and peer pressure. The method of tuning is about first setting your system free and second tuning it back in to your level of listening. What I’m preaching about is a simple message, the entire recording is there available for us to discover. Our choice to go after it or not is that division and if you look at these pages you will see folks living out that division in real time. It’s not a division between one person and the next unless we make it one. Nope the division is within us, do I stay where I am at or do I go beyond flaceplates, money and my personal reasons why not to. The OP is no slam, it’s a door. Some have opened this door, some are standing at the door, and others refuse to believe there is even a door there. So it’s not about (and never was) one person claiming themselves better than anyone else. The Tune is about exploring what signal really is by doing and not talking about why we are not doing, or only doing in part. It’s not judging you as a person or your intelligence. It’s a step that you either want to explore or you don’t. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
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