Pre amps cost vs. value ... what I discovered last month.

Kudos playmore

OP, Recently I went on an in depth search to replace my Parasound P 5  preamp(MSRP $1095). Aside from fitting my budget, the 2 main reasons were; it has separate XLR E/O circuitry, and a separate bass control circuit, which I was hoping to control the ridiculously sensitive VCs on my 2 SVS powered subs. Alas, it turned out to be of no help.. I also discovered that piggybacking off my main amps with speaker wire to the subs sounded much cleaner, but does not help with VC.

It seems upgrading from the P5 means jumping up to the $4K range, and if I could find a used Parasound JC 2 it's in the $3K range. The lack of funds headed me back to passive preamps. Decades ago I owned several, including an autoformer, but that was long before I replaced all my rca kit with XLR. You think your thread brought out the uglies, try discussing rca v XLR

Moving on, I found 2 PPs that caught my eye; the Hattor and the Tortuga, who uses LDR instead of resistors. Their XLR version looks to be very high quality with lots of I/Os, and is reasonably priced at $2495 with a 30 day return, but it was out of my budget. Still, worth consideration. The Hattor is also extremely well made: their LR version MSRP is $995. Bingo. It fit my budget, and after 9 days I still love it, though it ruthlessly exposes inferior recordings.

I know nothing about your ICs, but David Salz of WireWorld has been making inroads int the mastering/recording studio market. They too offer a money back

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To everyone here, please take some time to go to OPs site and review the hardware he has, except for his preamp it is VERY high end.  The amps are $20k a pair before mods, the DACs are $10k each, and I would bet the speakers are >>$25k, and all of this is in a designed acoustic space.   The real question is how many really hi-end home systems  can equal his system, and the answer will be very few.  This thread started on the question of cost to value for high end preamps.  It is entirely possible that if his Avocet was placed into a fancy case and marketed in a traditional dealer network, that the price would be 2-3 times higher.  That said, much of what is being recommended is somewhat variations of the same design theme.  Brian, to better what you have may be more an exercise in something different, but not better.  Otherwise, Spectrum with their very fast wide bandwidth design, or the Differential Balanced transformer design of Sonus Veritas would be different but the costs are breathtaking.   Given your talents, a custom unit maybe your only alternative, but if it is not broken why fix it. Otherwise, your assessment of SR and MQA is why I said adios to digital and went back to vinyl, but it has taken 2 years to get it right (for me).  However, you have peaked my interest enough for me to spend my money to buy albums you have engineered. Thank-you.

Nothing is perfect or repeatable in music playback across rooms, time, temperature, pressure, etc. Translation means that something has it’s integrity in ALL playback forums. There is no one perfect playback situation.

 As far as "flat" this and "flat" that I am 100% opposed to such nonsense on 2 basic levels. 1. nothing is truly flat or truly neutral, there are many flavors of vanilla, there is no straight wire with gain, not even in a cable or a capacitor. 2. the goal of music is CONNECTION and ELEVATION of humans, not PERFECTION. We are not doing a science project here.

Thanks Brian.

I know this is not what you came here to talk about and I apologize for helping to keep this thread off topic but I have not seen any other statements that have been more true or important on these boards than what you have stated and I needed to acknowledge that.

The Avocet sounds like an interesting piece. I decided to go looking for one on line and see how its laid out. 

Unfortunately it does not seem to be configured in a way that makes it usable in a home audio environment. 

If there is a more user friendly arrangement I would seriously consider giving one a whirl, as I am in the market for a different pre amp. I just cannot see using that one in my living room. A pity, as it sounds quite promising. 

@antinn the Sonics Allegra speakers (older birch not the newer and better Canalis Allegra in bamboo with better parts) were actually only $5000 used, although I am currently having my spare pair rebuilt internally for more money than they were new. Every part in the crossover and every wire in the box new, tip top parts ... Jeff @ Soniccraft in Texas doing the Xovers in an external box (easy to ship to him to tweak, holds larger caps) with a low end and a mid/high input post. Basically upgrading the Xover while ALSO matching it to the amps that he previously upgraded as well. The Avocet’s designer Dave Hill agrees with you that there is "different" but not "better" so I am staying as is on the pre for now. It has feature and familiarity that make any changes sideways not worth the cost to practicality. Analog VU meters for example, follow my input source selection, and VUs are still better than digital meters for overall volume/RMS.
@audiorusty I appreciate the kind words. Have been told I have a unique way of speaking about these things, which some people like, some don’t. I am daily working in the connection and elevation business. Taking approved mixes to other levels of awesomeness. That’s what music does, connects an artist with a listener and connects listeners to each other in the live moment. This elevates us. Joy. That’s the game. Not feeling alone. Music is about connection and elevation. There is no perfect human, perfect music or perfect system. Perfection is actually a fear-based mindset, built on proving things to others and external validation and fear of not being good enough, not measuring up. We all struggle with it, but overall fear is not a good way to live. Fear is a very bad idea when it comes to music, makes thing ignorable, unoriginal and worse. One of my clients The Black Keys, on "Brothers" 2010 intentionally left some imperfections in the performances in order to connect better. That was a fearless and intelligent decision. Vocal performances today always deal with this line in the sand, so does every other stage in production with the modern tools available. Not all styles have so much room to play with imperfections but in this era everything from pitch to time to tone can be perfected and it can all goo way too far, losing the humanity that connects us to an artist. This balance is always style dependent and about this one release, this one moment in time for the artist and their relationship with the market and their audience (current audience and potential audience)
@brhatten given my room acoustics and overall playback system, I have never heard a better room in a studio or home. When I go to the shows I’m always shocked how terrible everything sounds in those rooms, with a few exceptions per show that are almost good. My speakers are VERY dynamic and that’s something I don’t hear in most speakers, for example. What I listen for in good or bad rooms is the integrity of the music coming through. That’s translation. My room is tuned to my ear, so it’s the best, to me.  When it comes to building a home listening room I'm always sad to see people chasing things based on concept and not their own relationship to the room.  We only need to upgrade the one thing that is bothering us.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it !   Enjoy it.
@astewart8944 what exactly did I say on SR that got you excited? That’s a topic I’m passionate about. My interest is in respecting the integrity of the masters that have been approved by the entire creative team. All this post processing of masters is disrespectful, profit driven, and built on using fear of missing out to engender sales. MQA for example, all my work is being batch processed for sale as "Master Quality Authenticated". It’s neither master quality nor authenticated. Cynical marketing manipulation. Not happy at all with that business model.
Thanks all for the good banter. I like online friends in agreement or in argument while I work, keeps me in a good place.