Big speakers in small room at moderate volume levels

This afternoon I skipped work and went to audition the Paradigm Persona 5F. I was going to listen with Simaudio gear but they also had the Lyngdorf 2170 and I decided to have a demo of that unit instead of buying it blind from my remote dealer.

Room was about 2x the size of my office (likely even bigger). They did not have the smaller Persona 3F which is what I would want for my room. They hooked up the Lyngdorf to the Persona 5F instead and we had a listen. The sales guy never had demoed the Lyngdorf and Persona line together. They usually use Mac and sometimes Simaudio. We played 1 song from Vanessa Fernandez and I looked at the sales guy and asked is this the way the Persona should sound. I wanted to run out of the room, it was way too bright. He said something is wrong. It turned out that the Lyngdorfs sub connection was turned on and we were missing the low end. I have recently started to listen to this singer on my KEF LS50 system and have a general understanding how she should sound.

That was fixed and we listened again with all the Lyngdorf DSP turned off. The room was rather good so I wanted to hear the system without Room Perfect to see how the amp sounded. That was one of the issues I was concerned about in my original topic posting. The Lyngdorf was not calibrated for Room Perfect in that room with the Persona 5F, so today, it was not possible to hear RP even if I wanted too.

The sound was not that "rewarding" for a lack of better audiophile terminology, it just was not that great. So I asked the sales guy again is this what the Persona can do and he said it is not the best he has heard it. He thought maybe the Lyngdorf was under powered for the 5F. Before we called it a day we had one more configuration to go. That was to use the RCA pre-amp out of the Lyngdorf to the XLR input of a Simaudio 860A amp. Now we were in business with sound quality.

The sound of the Persona 5F was stunning with the Simaudio. The harshness was gone, the sound we incredible to listen to. Layered, spooky holographic, and large sound-stage. One disk I thought that would highlight the holographic sound I was witnessing was Emmylou Harris’s WREAKING BALL. I not sure if this is a real good recording but it has some severe atmospheric effects to the sound. We played the second cut and I was drawn into the sound so much that I began to visual Emmylou singing in a moving car. The Daniel Lanois studio effects on that track gave me that totally unexpected sensation of movement. I have heard this disk for years but not to this level of involvement. The other tracks I heard also had some great coherent sound quality to it.

I get it why they say the Persona line has a spooky holographic sound. I am a believer. I was interested in hearing this speaker because I thought it (or the 3F) as a direct competitor to the Magico A3. I thought that the BE tweeter and mid of the Persona may give it an edge in coherence. That is exactly what I heard. I played the same tracks as on the Magico A3 and I liked the sound appreciably better on the Persona 5F. So the Magico is now dropped off my list for consideration. That is just me, others may have a different take on these 2. However, I am not sure if I could listen to the Persona for 8 to 10 hours a day. I need a DSP configured demo in my home to know for sure.

I am not too enamored by the amplification on the Lyngdorf 2170 (maybe the Lyngdorf 3400 is much better). However, I am not willing to pay the price for the 3400 to find out. So I am now looking at alternatives.

1) There is a Macintosh DSP unit that only does DSP and is supposed to be the exact same licensed technology as in the Lyngdorf. The Simaudio 390 network player would be connected to the Mac and then a separate amp would also be used. I am not sure about the order of connections. I will demo this if my research leads me in this direction. I would not be wasting money on amplification with the Simaudio 390 since it does not have any.

2) Buy the 2170 to use just for the DSP and the preamp functionality (which worked beautifully with the Simaudio amp). Add a separate amp. Wasteful solution because I am throwing away the amplification of the Lyngdorf.

3) Investigate the recommended DSP network player from the dealer.

https://www.linn.co.uk/technology/space-optimisation

I have never heard of the DSP features on the Linn. It sounds rather interesting. They even have a separate unit in this system to make speaker drivers operate in PHASE. This is supported for a couple of speakers on my list (maybe not important, do not know yet):

Vivid Kaya 45
Harbeth SHL5+

I imagine the Persona 3F and the Yamaha NS5000 would be eventually supported. They already support other Paradigm and Yamaha speakers.

The dealer had the top of the line Linn DSP system with the active stand mount monitors and it sounded rather good. I liked the Persona 5F better but the issue here was the DSP capabilities and not comparing the speakers.

One thing for certain is that I will NOT get a stand mount speaker, that ship has sailed. Today’s demo sealed the deal for me. So the KEF Reference 1 and TAD ME1 are both out.

This Persona demo has made me even more interested in the Yamaha NS5000 which has all 3 drivers, tweeter, mid, and bass all made from the same material that is marketed as better than the Persona’s BE material. It is also supposed to be a very sweet sounding speaker good for very long hours of play. Similar in that characteristic to the Harbeth and Vandersteen. I will hear the Harbeth but now likely only after I have selected my DSP engine.

I will ask for a home demo of the Lyngdorf or whatever DSP engine I buy.

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Linn_Account_Space_Optimisation#Why_does_Space_Optimisation_no...

A different way to do DSP from the Lyngdorf approach.

Why does Space Optimisation not use a microphone measurement?The aim of Space Optimisation is to remove the effects of your room, in order to uncover the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers; after all, this is what you fell in love with when buying your speakers. In order to do this, Space Optimisation needs to understand both the interactions between your speakers and room and the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers; the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers are then subtracted from the interactions between your speakers and room, leaving only the effects of your room.

An acoustic measurement of the interactions between your speakers and room can have many sources of error which may affect the accuracy and repeat-ability of the measurement, including: the choice of measurement stimulus, such as MLS or a log chirp; external noise, such as traffic noise and vibration; quality and calibration of the microphone, which can introduce distortion; and the microphone location, which can be sensitive to within a few centimetres. The use of acoustic modelling removes these sources of error: the model can apply an ideal impulse as stimulus; the modelling domain is free from noise; the model can use an ideal microphone; and the listening location is well-defined. It can thus be seen that acoustic modelling has a clear advantage over acoustic measurement in understanding the interactions between your speaker and room.

The unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers depend on many factors, including: the shape and size of the drive units and ports; the constructive and destructive interference between the drive units, ports and any cabinet-edge diffraction sources; and the angle between the listening location and your speakers. Therefore, a simple on-axis anechoic measurement of your speakers is insufficient information; what is actually required is an anechoic measurement with your speakers in the exact same configuration as you have them in your home. While some manufacturers do publish anechoic measurements of their speakers, both on- and off-axis, it is extremely unlikely that they will have performed an anechoic measurement of your speakers in the exact same configuration as you have them in your home. The acoustic modelling of such a scenario is, however, straightforward; the model can simply turn your room into an anechoic chamber to obtain the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers in the exact same configuration as you have them in your home. It can thus be seen that acoustic modelling once again has a clear advantage over acoustic measurement in understanding the unique acoustic characteristics of your speakers.

From the above, it is clear that acoustic modelling is the best approach to Space Optimisation.

This is likely the analogues Linn unit to the Lyngdorf

https://www.linn.co.uk/sources/network-music-players/selekt#comparison-table

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Selekt_DSM

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/linn-selekt-dsm-review

The original version of this software debuted in 2015, but this latest version is an intriguing and more complex alternative to the kind of mic-operated auto equalisation systems we’re used to seeing on modern AV amplifiers. While some users could get decent results, it needs training and experience.

The new version can work with any shape of room, no matter how uneven. It will accommodate the effects of windows and doors, and even the changes in air pressure due to temperature fluctuations.

Space Optimisation also takes into account the behaviour of your speakers. Linn has built-up a large database with the detailed measured results of a wide range of speakers, including their electrical characteristics as well as physical aspects such as the distance of the drive units from the ground. This information, plus all the data of the room’s walls and construction, is crunched and the DSM’s output tailored accordingly to deliver what Linn feels is the optimum sound. Clever stuff.

There is also a RP-1 Lyngdorf unit, which is a preamp with DSP, EQ curves and crossover. No amp. No DA. I use it a lot. You may find one used for a little more than 1K. No manual dsp setting though. Or have a look at the more expensive DEQX. I also believe ARC2 is great.

Vanessa Fernandez gives an ok listening all in all. But her voice is not sweet at all on most of her recordings. Rather sharp and forced when she gets louder. No Roberta Flack there :-) Maybe just bad mics... If you found it sweet then the system was, in my opinion, colouring it.