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New DAC Not a Dramatic Improvement?

Ok, So after much thought and asking questions here on audiogon as to whether I should get a new cdp or DAC, I decided on a DAC because I plan on implementing a music server with a Mac Mini. I got it last week and hooked it up so that I could do A/B comparisons with my cdp as is, and through the DAC. My cdp is a 1-2 year old Onkyo dv-sp405 dvd/cd player. At first I was impressed. The bass and vocals were more defined, and there seemed to be more space. Not a lot more space, but just a little bit more openess. The vocals were also moved forward in the soundstage and had more thickness. The thing is, none of these things were very dramatic. THe more time I have sat and listened and done comparisons on many cd's I find the results vary. On some cd's there is significant improvement, and on others, hardly noticeable. In a blind test, do I think I could reliably say whether I was listening to the cdp directly or through the DAC? Let's just say I wouldnt bet my life on it. I probably wouldnt even bet 20$ on it, unless I could hear the two back to back, and on some recordings, not even then.

Now I know about diminishing returns, but I would think the difference between a 150$ dvd/cdp and a 2K$ DAC would be pretty obvious. On top of that, My DAC is hooked up with Transparent Cables (MW Super) and my cdp with 50$ Monster Cables.

Continuing.. I expect some people with say that a good dac needs a good transport. Some will probably say that the dac is being held back by the onkyo as a transport. I have also compared the cdp through the DAC against apple lossless files played from my computer through USB. They are identical.

What could be the weak link? I do not want to say what DAC I am using but lets just say it is a very recent one and around 2K. It is from a very respected company and very well reviewed. My other gear is a McIntosh MA6450 integrated, gallo ref 3.1 speakers, transparent cables. Could it be that my amp is not very revealing? I am thinking about selling the DAC and getting a cheaper one (DAC MAGIC, PS AUDIO DL3) since I will need one for my Mac Mini anyway. Honestly, I just dont think I can justify having 2K in my current DAC for the minimal difference.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.
farjamed
photon46
1,008 posts
 
Jylee may be right, or it could be that other things are also holding back your new dac's potential. Regarding your comparisons, I don't mean to instantly digress to a different subject, but I think Apple lossless is an inferior sounding codec. This has been discussed at length in other threads with diverse opinions voiced. Who knows if our different perceptions are the result of our imagination or different equipment? In any event, I'd suggest comparing WAV files to the cd player just to eliminate a variable. I've upgraded cd players several times and my Assemblage DAC2.7 Platinum has sounded demonstrably better with each upgrade. So, don't discount the transport's contribution. You don't mention anything about your power conditioning, are you using stock power cords and wall power? Attention to this factor can also contribute to a cleaner sonic window that allows for differences to be apparent. There may not be a "weak link" per se. It could be your entire system is not synergistically combined. I'm not saying it is. Just simply stating that sometimes it takes replacing more than one link in the chain really optimize sound reproduction for your room and tastes. If you are basically happy with the sound you are getting, your instincts to get something less expensive and spend resources elsewhere are probably well founded.
tholt
545 posts
 
Tvad, as always the voice of terse reason and the bottom line. I think he's right, but I'm also in your camp and would scratch my head at the seeming inconsistency of cost/benefit. I ran into a similar experience recently where a recently bought PS1 (the one everyone's talking about) indeed was not significantly worse to my ears then my +$3k player. Really makes you crazy and wonder about the marketing engine behind it all.

IMO is if it doesn't sound right now, no cable, tweak or the like will change it dramatically enough in the right direction.
farjamed OP
33 posts
 
Thanks for the responses.

Jylee:
Do you think something such as the the MHDT Labs Havana or Paradisea DAC would sound different? Both are non-oversampling and tubed. They are much less expensive though I have read very good things about them. (Although I have read very good things about my current DAC, and while I am not dissing it, I just am not seeing what the rage is about)

Photon46. I will try ripping some cds in WAV format and trying again. Yes, I am using wall power and was actually thinking of getting something such as the PS Audio Quintet down the road, but I am skeptical about such things. I was skeptical about cables, and the difference that a cdp could make being that cables are well "just cables" and cd's are digital. It seems that my current situation justifies my skepticism. The way I see it, if a 2000$ DAC (an active component) does not make an obvious difference, how can a passive component such as a cable or power coditioner make an obvious difference. I could be wrong. Also, since everything in the system is using wall power (through a surge protector ofcourse) shouldnt it all be relative?
newbee
4,093 posts
 
That you can't reliably hear differences is not surprising for a lot of reasons....and Tvads advise is sound.

Consider that 1) Your equipment may not be resolving enuf to reveal subtle differences that exist in many ss digital devices.
Consider that 2) Your present listening skills are not attuned to the differences and/or that different devices can make, or that these differences are not important to you (yet).

The more advanced your equipment in general and your listening experience the easier the differentials become. At some point in time most everyone hears no difference, then they hear some difference which may or may not be important. Then they hear every difference, and lastly they not only hear every difference but the differences are all meaningful to them.

Take Tvads advice and don't worry about the fine points. :-)
tvad
9,467 posts
 
02-26-09: Farjamed

Do you think something such as the the MHDT Labs Havana or Paradisea DAC would sound different?

They would sound different. No question about it.

The issue is whether they would offer a substantial "improvement" over your present DAC or CD player. I believe the answer lies in the fact that you report hearing a small difference when using your $2K DAC versus your CD player.

The Havana and Paradisea are less expensive, can be found used, and have pretty good resale, so you have little to lose by buying a used one and trying it.

You may like it, but based on your comments using the $2K DAC, I wouldn't count on an "Ah-Ha!" moment.
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