Wadia S7i direct to amp

11-28-10: Egidius
..thanks for your clarification! Good to know there is background behind a statement ;-)
I cannot judge 381 vs s7i, they will have similar problems.
Interesting point about the Digital pre - but:
isn't it always the case with a DAC giving out the full power (i.e. 100%),
or you mean to say, they could make a purist version without attenuation sounding - pure?

i think your question is could wadia make a cd player that had both fixed outputs and variable outputs. while you do see that feature in some cd players with integrated preamplifiers, it is unnecessary for wadia to offer such a feature. the reason is that the wadia preamplifier operates in the digital domain.

the way that the wadia preamplifier operates, it attenuates signal volume digitally when the output level is less than 100 but does not attenuate the signal when the output level is 100. it is only after the digital signal level is determined that the a/d is performed and an analog voltage delivered on the analog outputs. so if you don't want signal attenuation, set the output level to 100 on the wadia. this unattenuated signal is equivalent to a "fixed" output that you might see on some other units. when you send the output from the wadia to the preamplifier, you should set the wadia output level at 100 and then control the volume level (in the analog domain) at the preamplifier.

of course this unattentuated signal is not actually a "fixed" signal because you can vary the output. but since the varying is done in the digital domain you don't have the situation that you would have if the attenuation were done in the analog domain. in that case, you would perform the a/d conversion first to generate an unattenuated signal. this analog signal would be in the analog domain. one copy of the unattenuated signal would go to "fixed" output terminals. another copy of the unattenuated signal would go to preamplifier circuitry that would allow you to control the attenuated signal level, also in the analog domain. the signal output from the preamplifier circuitry would go to variable output terminals.

the point that i am trying to get across is that since wadia does preamplification in the digital domain, you don't need 2 sets of outputs. since the wadia does preamplification in the digital domain, if you set the digital preamplifier level to 100, then you are sending an unattenuated signal to the a/d circuit. thus, analog output from the a/d circuit is like the "fixed" output. however, if you set the digital preamplifier level to less than 100, then the wadia attenuates the signal in the digital domain. it is the attenuated digital signal that is sent to the same a/d circuit. the a/d circuit then outputs an attenuated analog output signal. but to the a/d circuit, there is no difference, it just receives a digital signal and converts it. the a/d circuit does not have to know whether it has or has not been attenuated in the digital domain.

however, where it can make a difference is that you can lose resolution through the process or digital attenuation. the source material from a redbook cd has 16 bits of digital resolution. the wadia operates with 21 bits of digital resolution. you lose about 0.5dB of volume with each step in the digital preamplifier control. thus, you can drop the digital preamplifier output level to about 65 (from 100) before you are prone to begin losing resolution in your digital signal. as you start losing resolution the signal can start to sound "thin".

where it can also make a difference is when the signal output from the wadia is not loud enough. in that case you can adjust the maximum output signal level. the maximum output signal level from the wadia is over 4vrms. a 4vrms signal level may not drive a power amplifier into clipping, but it is pretty close, so you are probably not going to have any need to supply a voltage higher than that to a power amplifier even if you use a preamplifier.

based on the discussion i have read here, even if you set the digital preamplifier output level to 100 (i.e. output an unattenuated signal from the wadia) there are some for whom the signal sounds better if it is passed through a preamplifier before it is sent to the power amplifier. if that is your experience as well, then you should send the output signal from the wadia into a preamplifier. that happens to not be my experience, so i prefer to drive the power amplifier directly from the wadia. i go through a preamplifier only if i want to play music at low volumes (where i am concerned about loss of signal resolution) or in cases where i need to use the preamplifier to get additional signal gain (beyond that which i can realize by driving the wadia directly into the power amplifier).

if anyone is interested in learning more about the principles of wadia operation there are several white papers on the wadia website.

You don't have to read - just trust your ears

11-27-10: Rtn1
The volume control in the Wadia is decent. But, it is no match for a great preamp. A preamp can provide a more natural presentation with dynamics, texture, layering, and body.

what you are describing is a preamp that is, by definition, *not* transparent, but rather one that colors the input signal. it's fine with me if people want preamplifiers that color the input signal; it just seems crazy to me to read "audiophile" reviews that rave about how "transparent" this component is, or that component is, when in reality what they are seeking is a particular coloration.

11-27-10: Rtn1
In comparison, the (wadia) digital volume control can sound constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving.

my question to you is, how do you know that the source material was not recorded so as to sound "constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving"? it is my observation that the quality of recordings can vary widely. i mean, for all you know, the wadia could just be faithfully reproducing the signal being provided from the source material.

if all you do is "trust your ears" while having no idea whatsoever about the underlying operations that produce the sound, all you can do is offer subjective observations about how the end result produced by the entire system sounds to you. but you most likely don't have enough information to ascribe that end result to the performance of any one component in the system.

Unfortunately Paperw8, what you fail to realize is that the concept is quite simple. The Wadia is trying to do two jobs - that of a CD player and that of a preamplifier. It should come as no surprise that a top flight dedicated preamplifier, such as the Ayre KX-R, which is focused on a singular task, will outperform the all-in-one digital preamplifier in the Wadia.

Accordingly, you actually are entering into your analysis backwards since your basic assumption, i.e., that the Wadia produces an "uncolored" presentation, is incorrect. Rather, the Wadia is coloring the sound via the suboptimal volume control in its digital preamplifier.

With regard to your argument that there is no way to turn off the digital preamplifier in the Wadia; while that is technically accurate, even Wadia itself admits that the preamplifier portion of their players do the least harm to the signal as you go higher up in the volume range. Accordingly, 100 volume (i.e., using a preamplifier) must impose the least harm to the signal as it exits the Wadia.

My practical experience over many years with Wadia products, most recently the Wadia 861se GNSC Statement running direct, through an ML 326S and through an Ayre KX-R is consistent with the foregoing.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, you will get no argument from me regarding the fact that most preamplifiers on the market color the sound and that it is often just this coloration that the owners enjoy (whether they like the coloration itself or that coloration counteracts another coloration produced by a different component in their system).

"How do you know that the source material was not recorded so as to sound "constrained, 2-dimensional, and less involving"? "

Huh?