Subwoofer: should we even use them at all?

Good question, Elegal.

In my opinion, it depends on the system. If your main speakers are cones, add a cone subwoofer. If your main speakers are Magnepan, add a Magnepan sub. If your main speakers are ESL's, the Magnepan sub just might be fast enough.

I just received my Parsifals last week. I thought they were bass shy initially too. But since the bass is back facing getting the distance right from the back wall makes all the difference. Inches too close and it's boomy, to far and it feels lacking.

Mine is now dialed in and the bass is absolutely standout! Full and well defined. It's been forcing me to play lots of jazz lately just to hear the string bass, vocals drums, etc. Listening to Dianne Krall now - just spooky realism. The staging is so perfect too I just close my eyes and its hard NOT to feel you're in the club with them.

Same thing with Miles Davis before that and Pink Floyd "The Final Cut" prior to that (ok it's not jazz but equally spooky realism).

The bass is suppose to be one of the most famous strengths of these speakers (and I see why). Placement from the back wall is key (along with supporting equipment).

Even side wall placement comes into play according to Verity. They were very helpful and patient over the phone and had some unusual tips. I can't imagine adding a sub would do anything but detract.

Here's the truth: low frequencies are subject to cancellation and reinforcement by normal room boundaries, resulting in uneven bass. This is unavoidable with any large speaker capable of putting out low bass, in a normal-sized room. If you have large speakers and you want to hear accurate low bass, you need the subwoofer (preferably two) to fill in the frequencies that are being cancelled by the room interaction. However, the addition of the sub(s) could exacerbate the reinforcement problem. Fortunately this can be dealt with in several ways including room treatment, repositioning, or signal processing/equalization.

If on the other hand you are using smaller speakers, the addition of one or two subs will add the low frequencies that you are missing.

Bo1972: did you try positioning the subs further out from the wall, closer to the listener position, to get better timing? I have my Velodyne DD18 on a low trolley. When I want the best performance I wheel it out, one foot or so in front of the speakers.

Yes I did try different places from the wall. I am a person who likes to test. Testing means; trying many different things.

The nice thing about testing is collecting information. This you use for the best endresult.

When I put it closer to the wall the dynamics are stronger. I will loose too much drive when I put it more away from the wall. The pro measurement gives you the freedom to put it were you want to.

My low freq. unit is made from ceramics. This one is a lot lighter compared to the material of the DD18.

That's why you have a much faster response. This is easily to hear in the level of integration.

Velodyne should use lighter material for a much faster response. Because they have every part for a good subwoofer. The only limitation is their timing.

The new level I have with my subwoofer is that you feel more energy. And I am not only talking about low freq. Also in freq above 80 hz you feel more energy.

The Audioquest Wild Dog and the Stillpoinst togheter give you a much higher level in speed. You need to hear it before you understand what it makes special and new.