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An Audiophile Goal

An Audiophile Goal.

I have been grappling with the perceived problem of listening to LPs at the same volume setting, for every LP. The original post that I addressed this problem with is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1179765549&openmine&zzAcoustat6&4&5#Acoustat6. It was to discuss my idea of playing back all LPs at the same volume setting regardless of type of music or recording etc. To say it was a debacle would be an understatement to say the least. The discussion did not start the way I thought it would and went quickly downhill from there. I would like to put that behind me and realize why it was so controversial and failed as a discussion. As I originally said this idea was new to me and it took such a long time to coagulate my thoughts about this and the reasons why it works. The answer is obvious now. I didn't have an audiophile goal.

I got the answer from reading the recent post about J. Gordon Holts article in Stereophile which was discussed on Audiogon. .
The reference being about an audiophile goal in one of the posts. This was my thought, myself and audiophiles in general don't have an audiophile goal (actually, I do have several but I will stick to the topic). It seems that no one can agree on a goal, its all so subjective some say, I like it loud, I like it quiet, I like a lot of bass, I like imaging and on and on. This is fine, that is why we all buy different speakers and equipment. It comes down to you can't measure music. You have to hear it, does it make your toe tap? Can you listen at a low level? Is the tweeter too bright? Is the Bass too loud? Ad nauseum. And there we go again are my toes tapping enough? What is low level listening? Is the bass loud enough for hip hop but too loud for a violin concerto?

I found myself an audiophile goal and an easy one at that, its 20-20k hz. Yeah, you like it too. Right? You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat (as possible). I said I needed a goal! I know there is more to it than that, but undeniably it is a goal. Now if I go with a test reference of 83db at 1000hz from my test LP this will be an excellent level for dynamics, noise levels and acuteness of hearing. All that is required is 1000hz at 83db from the test LP and all other freq matching this level, So 10,000hz and 5,000hz along with 500,100, 80, 50 and 30hz with all of the freq in between at the specified level of 83db will all be played back off of the test LP at the same level or as close as possible as can be obtained within a systems speakers and equipment and rooms limitations. Find this level and you leave your volume control set to this position for every LP you play. Pretty simple actually.

The original idea came to me slowly over the last three to four years, though I struggled with the quandary for as long as I can remember and I have yet to hear anyone say, sure you don't do that? I thought we all did. All because I didn't have an audiophile goal. Now I find out that perhaps even J. Gordon Holt may not have an audiophile goal, even one as simple as this. The best thing is now I get to listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting with its attendant qualities of dynamics, constant noise levels, unchanging freq response and a host of other benefits which come along for the ride.

I knew it was wrong to be changing volume levels and bass levels for different LPs. Jumping up in the middle of a song to hear the bass drums or turning it down for a quiet violin solo and doing the same for complete albums. It was insane, I always felt like I was in junior high school cranking it up for the cool parts. But every one does it, so did I. I was missing that audiophile goal.

I enjoy listening to my Lps, many of which I still have from my early high school days and everything in between which amounts to about 2500 quality LPs. As a now confirmed audiophile, now that I have a realistic and perhaps more importantly a measurable goal, I could start figuring out which albums sound good and which do not. It was easy, every LP is played back at the same gain level (volume control setting if you will) and guess what you hear? Every Lp for what it actually sounds like.

Another benefit is that every system you hear is played back to the same standard from the same test LP, perhaps it could even be used at audio shows where every room is played back at this reference setting. If you choose not to listen at the standard then it is stated at the door that reference setting is either higher or lower than the reference. This way if you choose not to abuse your hearing in a room that is 6db above the reference standard you are warned before entering.

And all of this because J Gordon Holt didn't have an audiophile goal.

If you can listen to one Lp at a certain level whether it be a high or low level why can't you listen to any other record at that level?

Just a few thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob
acoustat6
cdwallace
216 posts
 
Maybe this will clear things up a bit. Call it a compilation of both angles.

Bob is searching for a reference level for LP's. However, this is no one reference level for all LP's. Largely because all LP's were not recorded to the same standards and reference, one to another. Bob is in search of why can't all LP's be played back at the same reference volume level. To better answer his question, they could if they were all recorded to the same references in other areas across the board. Since they are not, it would be a bit difficult to achieve such a task. Not to say some LP's can't be grouped or catagorized using a reference level range, but to have a finite level is a very daunting task.

I believe this was the end result this conversation was intended to bring about. However, it would have happened if all parties had a better amount of working knowledge concerning reference, not to mention how it applies to volume level. Since it is not the common thought or concensus of audiophiles, they don't understand it. This not slam, just an observation. Fidelity inhanced would be a better description. Almost to the point where fidelity becomes a critical to achieving it. This where being an audiophile takes on a scientific role; the two worlds collide.

For once its good to see the grey area shrink a bit. Remove the subjective and find the foundation of why!

Bob...you're becoming more of an audiophile than you think. Keep at it!

Craig
jpv
23 posts
 
I think Bob's setting of a referance level does achieve a few things. I think what he has done is find the volume level where his system sounds the best. 83db is it for his system. Recording levels are set thats why there are engineers and meters on equipmnent. That is not what he is looking for. What Bob did do is set his system, room and mind up to fully take advatage of what is recorded on the records. He is not interested in jacking up the bass if its not there, he takes for what it is -a record with no bass. or a album that was recorded to low or to high. With a lot of background noise, rumble, or hiss. He has no need to play with speaker placement or wonder why now becuase I lowered the volume the sound change so let me get up and move thing around. I have tryed his approach and it works. You will have a system and room tuned to one volume that will come much closer to being enjoyed then if you don't. Keep in mind the is for critical listening. not when you a getting f*&^$d. Also thing of when you go to a audio store and listen to a speaker, amp, etc.. do you let the salesman screw with the volume control when listening. If you do you have a problem and probably like the speakers that it louder - unless they are Bose.
acoustat6 OP
357 posts
 
Hi JPV, Thanks for your post, you are close to what I describe. Don't forget that the 83db is the volume that my system is set at, is a reference tone of 83db at 1000hz from a test LP. This is an important distinction. You would use your test LP (NOT playing back an unknown quantity such as a favorite LP) with a reference tone of 1000hz and find that 83db to be the goal, of course then all other freq should be close. This way LPs cut low will play low and LPs cut high will play loudly, In the mean time the system noise levels and also the LPs noise levels never change, except that a noisy LP will be noisy and a quiet LP will sound quiet.

A dynamic Lp will sound dynamic when directly compared to a LP lacking dynamics. A LP that is cut incorrectly, say a solo violin recorded/pressed too high, will not sound right and that turning it down will not help this LP to sound good. Think about that for a moment, you decrease your volume level and that will reduce your systems ability to give good dynamic swings and a good in room frequency response.

You will find that LPs cut and recorded correctly will sound best with minimal noise. LPs that are not recorded/cut correctly do not sound good no matter if the volume is manipulated up or down, as they don't sound "good" no matter what you do with the volume control. Just face it, it is not a good sounding LP, and therefore why adjust your system to it?

I dont believe many systems are capable of playing 83db all frequencies (or if you dont want to listen that loud) in that case go to a lower set level, say 80db or 77db and set your system to this level. Whatever you do, do not make changes to your system when playing back at different volume control setttings. And definitely don't adjust bass levels to make up for volume control changes or lack of bass in LPs.

Bob
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rauliruegas
9,123 posts
 
Dear Bob: +++++ " You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat ." +++++

Looking to your nice single item audio system IMHO it is almost impossible to obtain ( per se ) your desired goal, many factors in your audio system preclude it: your phono stage has an un-desired non-flat inverse RIAA eq. that it is greater than 0.1db from 20-20kHz, your phono cartridge has a deviation on the same frequency over 1.0db, you have severe deviations on your speaker response due to a high output impedance in the amplifiers, room interaction, etc, etc.
Of course that your goal is a desired one but alone could means nothing, that goal have to come along with very low distortions ( any kind ), noise, colorations, right tonal/natural balance, high resolution, etc, etc.

Now and speaking on your " same SPL " for every LP: I normally heard my system at the same SPL, SPL where my system is right on target where I can hear it for hours with out any fatigue " ear/brain " sign where I always enjoy what I'm hearing it does not matters what I'm hearing where my " foots " are always dancing where my brain and feelings are full of emotions.
Yes, there is one SPL for each audio system where everything is almost right but not necessary that fact means that every single LP should shine: NO!, there are several LPs that have its own and singular SPL ( different from what I hear normally ) where they are on target.

There are many examples about but one that comes to my memory is the Patricia Barber Cafe Blue 33rpm and 45rpm versions: many people say that the 45rpm version is not as good his 33rpm counterpart and that's is true if you want to hear both at the same volume but if you increment by 2-3db the SPL on the 45rpm everything comes on target.
So in the same way that every single audio system has its singular right SPL where it shine in the same way the LPs have its own SPL where it shine each one.

This means that if everyone of us always want to achieve the best ( about SPL ) on each one LP then we have to adjust the volume for each one LP where we can obtain the best natural tonal balance.

Now, what to do?, easy hear at the SPL where you are satisfied!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
inpepinnovations
134 posts
 
Bob, I have marked every one of my LPs with the volume setting that is necessary to achieve 90 db on peaks. Thus, I use that volume setting for that LP before I sit to listen.
Some recordings, naturally, sound better than others, usually due to the varying degree of compression used, but at least I am comparing at a standard playback level at my listening spot. When I change rooms or speakers, I chnge the gain on the power amplifier to obtain the same peaks at my listening position for the same volume settings that I have used on the pre-amp.
Works for me!

Salut, Bob p.
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