Preference for separate phono stages?

I find it depends on the phono cartridge. In many cases a separate phono stage w. the obvious benefits will lead to some sonic advantages. In my case, this includes a purity of signal that readibly apparent. I think some from the Doshi crowd could chime in, having owned both full function preamps and them having the separates.

Dear friends: This subject is an almost misunderstood one for many of us, well this is only a simple opinion.

Like in the cartridges that we usually see it like a stand alone performer and now we know that at least the tonearm is an intimate part of it and form a stand alone UNIT the phono stage IMHO it is not a stand alone audio link but part of a UNIT along the line stage ( I'm not talking here in commercial/marketing point of view. ).

It does not matters how good is your phono stage the cartridge signal must pass through a line stage ( before the amplifier ) too so the line stage must be at least at the same level quality performance of the phono stage doing no degradation to the cartridge signal.

The relationship between the phono stage and line stage is so intimate that both units must be " transparent " ( at the same quality level ) to the cartridge signal, it must be synergy between the phono stage and line stage and by synergy I'm reffering to same quality level and the synergy in electrical terms, not the usualy and wrong synergy that many people talk about where the errors in one audio item help to " cover "/compensate for the errors on the other unit: this is not synergy but a mistmatch.

Now, IMHO it is not easy to have a Phonolinepreamp ( integral unit ) because the designer must be a good one in line stage and in phono stage too where both designs has its own and unique challenges.

I can't see advantages on separate units and everything the same a Phonolinepreamp ( integral unit ) IMHO is the best way to go. I think that the " key " is on the phono-line stages quality design and certainly IMHO it does not depends on the phono cartridge like Dgad posted.

I know that everyone has its own opinion in the subject and it will be interesting to hear it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I would expect the Doshi folks to say it's the best there is. It might be - would it be better or worse with two boxes and two power supplies?

(To the person who implied the only trade-off is cost - that's not true: the extra IC needed, with more connections and more wire, is the potential sonic trade-off.)

Basically I was interested to hear from designers who've experimented with both approaches. Keeping everything constant except one vs. two boxes. Strictly academic.

Raul,

I am a big believer in phono stage/ cartridge compatibility. For a simple example, the Ortofon SPU is designed to have a SUT in line. It sounds better this way. Also, your condemnation of the PC-1 earlier... could very well be reversed using a lean, solid state type phono. But the lean solid state phono would not sound best with Dynavector XV-1s or Lyra Titan I. It is all about system synergy. YOu just want everyone to believe that there are absolute bests, when in fact some items that are less than the best, may very well be the best in the correct system and perform adimarably above what you heard in your system. Now..this does not mean that in your system they might be poor, or that in someone elses system you might not like them. It is what it is. I have realized while some like sound A others like sound B. My bias are pretty simple. No hissy tizzy highs or thinness allowed. But too thick is no good either. In that regard certain speakers will throw me out of the room. And so will certain phono stage/cartridge combinations.

Now - changing subject but relevant; isn't it amazing how VdH can tune a cartridge with a few adjustments to bring it into a different league of sound. Even more so, this tells you that even cartridges don't always sound alike due to slight difference in production etc. and thus there is no absolutes.

Hence, my strong push for system synergies. Anyone saying otherwise is just trying to push an agenda.

Dear darren: I understand you and for the most part I agree with you, let me to explain a little about synergy from my point of view ( that it is only that a point of view and not in any absolute terms. ): I can't comment on your SPU example because I don't know the history behind that design and I don't have yet the opportunity to try it in my today audio system.

When you speak of the PC-1 or XV-1 trying to match to a Phonolinepreamp my point of view is that if one of these cartridges ( or both ) needs a special sound " signature " in a Phonolinepreamp to performs at its best this means to me that something could be wrong around those audio items: if the Phonolinepreamp is an accurate/low distortions ( not analytical ) ( no colorations ) design then the cartridge has a little problem ( assuming good tonearm match and right set-up and loading. ) and that cartridge is not up to the task and of course things can be on reverse too when the Phonolinepreamp is full of distortions/colorations/inaccuracies, in both cases there is no synergy.

Darren, if you take a look to the Agon second hand audio item ads you can make a question: why so many and different ( almost new/mint ) audio items for sale? what's wrong?: well maybe many of those persons are looking for synergy and they don't find it yet and IMHO they don't find it yet because what almost all are doing is to buy/try audio items that are compensating the errors of some audio items in their audio systems and with this compensation they think they can achieve that critical and elusive SYNERGY but sooner or latter this kind of " audio attitude " show the " cooper " because the sum/add of two errors ( IMHO ) in my audio experiences almost never give you the right/correct and precise performances.

Do you know how many years that I don't buy audio items like: speakers, amplifiers, phono stage, line preamp, etc, etc ?, too many to remember and why is this?, very simple: I already achieve TRUE SYNERGY through my different audio items where I was and am looking for that true-synergy where I don't have to compensate for anything anymore.
Stay where I'm take me not only a lot of years but a lot of real time testing/trying/changing/etc but the reward is worth any effort on that direction.

Do you think that you already achieve in your system TRUE/REAL Synergy?, I know the answer because I know every single audio item in your system ( but the phono stage ) and I know that you don't have electrical synergy ( example ) between the Wilsons and the VTLs because of its impedances.

Now, I'm convinced that people like you, me and several other ones agree in 80%-90% what must be the quality performance that we are looking in our home music sound reproduction systems, we almost all have more coincident " attitude " about that differences.

I know that nothing is perfect but beyond your opinion, mine or any one else: my quest is for be near that " perfection " and I have to say that I don't accept ( normally ) nothing less, this is the main reason why we design/build the Essential Phonolinepreamp and that's why I have my " old " system running with out the normal tendency to change it.

Anyway, I think that we are talking almost on the same subject SYNERGY but the point is that I speak on true/real synergy and till you achieve it or be near it it will be difficult to understand at 100%.

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.