Direct drive/rim drive/idler drive vs. belt drive?

Dear friends: Atmasphere is spot-on in the subject. The fact that almost no one of you already have that kind of experience does not means he is wrong and you are right, please let me explain on it:

in the deep research that we make ( and still doing. ) in our self tonearm design one of the main factors for achieve our main tonearm target ( a Universal tonearm where any cartridge shows its best like in no any other tonearm. ) is the build tonearm materials especially at the headshell/arm wand.

Testing different available build materials we can't find the one that help totally to achieve our main target so we have to start a whole build material research that bring us to " build " by ourself the main tonearm build material: this is a propietary blend.

Well this propietary blend material help us to achive our tonearm main target.

Through all that research that take us several months we learn the critical importance that have the build material where the cartridge is attached ( tonearm ).
The cartridge is like a very sensitive micro that detect tiny very tiny ( microscopic ) resonances/vibrations/distortions that you and me are not aware even exist and that affect the quality cartridge performance in almost the same way between the TT plater and the cartridge.
Today I can say that that tonearm build material makes a paramount difference in the cartridge performance.

Well, I ask my fellow Guillermo why not try that same tonearm build material in a TT mat/pad and VOILA!! the differences ( in six different TT's. ) in dynamic, tonal balance, transparency, soundstage, focus, top to bottom coherence, in any single performance parameter improve ( not only different but better. ) like night and day!! lowering ( almost disappearing. ) distortions/colorations level to almost CERO!!!!

I can say that this is a unique experience and that's why I understand in a precise way what Ralph posted about that almost no one of you can't understand till you have/hear that experience.

For months and in different threads ( mostly on tonearm/TT's related subjects. ) I posted ( anyone can read it. ) the critical/crucial importance of the tonearm/TT build materials that makes a difference for the better, till today no one ( but Ralph ) gives the right importance to this main factor and you can see in this thread: everyone speaking ( one way or the other ) about motors, belts, bearing, drive system, etc, etc. I'm not saying that all those factors are not important certainly are but till today no one ( tonearm/TT designer/manufacturer address seriously ( I mean in the right way. ) the item build materials.

I know ( Lewm. ) that exist several commercial mat/pad options but no one is near of what Ralph or I already experienced and know about.

I know too that is a little frustrating for almost all of you don't have an opportunity to hear that unique " audio experience " but if in anyway serve for anyone of you my audio system is OPEN for you anytime you want it.

In the midtime we are almost finishing our tonearm design and starting our TT design ( with that propietary blend material. ) along a cartridge.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Wow, what a great discussion. As a Galibier owner, I can't wait for RMAF to audition the new motor/controller.

I tend to agree with the opinion that while each design has its particular set of strengths and weakness (resulting in a signature sound), excellence in implementation is critical. The Saskia is a very different from my Galibier and each have their own sonic signature, however, I would be happy with either. With a well-designed system, it's not 'better or worse', it's a matter of taste.

One additional variable that hasn't been addressed is production variability. Since many of the high end tables have limited production runs, I would guess that there is variability between each table produced by a given manufacturer.

My wife and I experienced a similar phenomenon when we purchased our piano. After months of auditioning, we decided we perferred the Steinway sound. We spent many hours over two counsecutive days, auditioning 18 Steinway L models. Each piano had the Steinway sound, but every one sounded and played a little differently. On the 2nd day of our auditions, Van Cliburn was visiting the dealer's showroom and he played each of our finalists. That really brought out the individual personality of each piano. (Analogous to the difference between having your analog system set up well versus set up perfectly).

Can we get back on track talking about the genres of turntable drive system?

It's not that I don't believe the improvement of a turntable mat - of course they do - but we were talking about the TYPE of improvement, in what area the mat will improve the most and some of us simply question it will improve the "slam", "drive", or rhythmic quality, not tonal quality, that, we believe, has more to do with the drive system and, in my experience, particularly, the motor. I will be happy to be proven wrong that a turntable mat will improve across the board in every sonic area to the point where it even matches or surfaces replacing a mediocre motor with a better one. If there's cogging or speed irregularities or speed drift, wouldn't it make sense to address the motor, which is the singular active component in the entire system? For some reason, the thread ended up talking about turntable mats. Many stock Empire 208 turntables are a little fast, please illuminate me on how a turntable mat can make the speed spot on.

Back to motors or drive systems, shall we?

Question for Mr. Kelly. Is there a technical explanation on why, at least to me, most coreless motors in a direct-drive system sounds smoother to my ears? I know they've been advertised as having less cogging or coggin free and I have to admit they do sound silky smooth. They tend to have less torque and, again to my ears, less dynamic but I am willing to trade for smoother sound than just dynamics. Even on a cheap Pioneer DD table with coreless motor that I acquired recently I heard the purest smoothest violin sound from a turntable. Sonically, I am sold on this type of motor. Typically I choose a high torque core motor DD table to tape-drive my passive platter to equal the smooth sound of a DD table with coreless motore.

HiHo

Here are a few things which I can prove to be true:

1. Newton's Third Law of motion holds for turntable motors so the reaction torque reflected into the chassis will be the mirror of the forward torque applied to the platter.

2. The variation in reluctance of a "coreless" motor is much smaller than that in a motor using an iron cored stator.

3. As an iron cored DD motor rotates, the servo loop compensates for the variation in reluctance by decreasing torque as the rotor pulls towards the lowest reluctance position and increaes torque as the rotor pulls away from that position. This happens many times per revolution, depending on the slot and pole numbers of the stator and rotor respectively. The exact quantum is the least common multiple of the slot and pole numbers.

4. It follows from 1 that the torque variation reflected into and propagated through the chassis is much smaller with an ironless stator than with an iron cored.

It is my conjecture that this phenomenon explains what you are hearing. Naturally I cannot prove this so I won't say that it is *definitely* the case.

Some support for this idea comes from some engineering work done at Sansui towards the end of the analogue era where they designed a DD with two counter-rotating platters to obviate the problem (called X-99 I believe).

Mark Kelly

Dear Hiho: It is obvious that a TT build material ( any ) can't fix a mediocre motor that ca run on " speed ", but I think that is not the subject on what Ralph want to share with all of you.

I can tell you that through my TT experiences through the years ( dozens of TTs ) almost all main factors on TT performance are already addresses but the TT right build materials.

You can find several threads like this one speaking one and again the same TT topics with no single real advance out there.
I know that everyone has a lot of fun reading and making some TT changes on its systems but that main factor ( TT build material ) remain almost untouchable: I wonder why?. The " sad " issue is that almost all analog people does not care about just like you.
It is obvious that maybe does not care about because don't understand the critical importance on the TT build materials that like I posted the differences in quality performance is: night and day !!

I understand too that because almost no one already experienced what Ralph and I " live " there is not to much of what to talk/share from almost all of you.

IMHO and like Fm_loging posted: we have to evolution if we want to grow up and if we want to improve what we have.

I'm on evolution and that's why I share with all of you my findings. Stay steady where you are is up to you and fine with me.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.