Reviews with all double blind testing?


In the July, 2005 issue of Stereophile, John Atkinson discusses his debate with Arnold Krueger, who Atkinson suggest fundamentally wants only double blind testing of all products in the name of science. Atkinson goes on to discuss his early advocacy of such methodology and his realization that the conclusion that all amps sound the same, as the result of such testing, proved incorrect in the long run. Atkinson’s double blind test involved listening to three amps, so it apparently was not the typical different or the same comparison advocated by those advocating blind testing.

I have been party to three blind testings and several “shootouts,” which were not blind tests and thus resulted in each component having advocates as everyone knew which was playing. None of these ever resulted in a consensus. Two of the three db tests were same or different comparisons. Neither of these resulted in a conclusion that people could consistently hear a difference. One was a comparison of about six preamps. Here there was a substantial consensus that the Bozak preamp surpassed more expensive preamps with many designers of those preamps involved in the listening. In both cases there were individuals that were at odds with the overall conclusion, and in no case were those involved a random sample. In all cases there were no more than 25 people involved.

I have never heard of an instance where “same versus different” methodology ever concluded that there was a difference, but apparently comparisons of multiple amps and preamps, etc. can result in one being generally preferred. I suspect, however, that those advocating db, mean only “same versus different” methodology. Do the advocates of db really expect that the outcome will always be that people can hear no difference? If so, is it the conclusion that underlies their advocacy rather than the supposedly scientific basis for db? Some advocates claim that were there a db test that found people capable of hearing a difference that they would no longer be critical, but is this sincere?

Atkinson puts it in terms of the double blind test advocates want to be right rather than happy, while their opponents would rather be happy than right.

Tests of statistical significance also get involved here as some people can hear a difference, but if they are insufficient in number to achieve statistical significance, then proponents say we must accept the null hypothesis that there is no audible difference. This is all invalid as the samples are never random samples and seldom, if ever, of a substantial size. Since the tests only apply to random samples and statistical significance is greatly enhanced with large samples, nothing in the typical db test works to yield the result that people can hear a difference. This would suggest that the conclusion and not the methodology or a commitment to “science” is the real purpose.

Without db testing, the advocates suggest those who hear a difference are deluding themselves, the placebo effect. But were we to use db but other than the same/different technique and people consistently choose the same component, would we not conclude that they are not delusional? This would test another hypothesis that some can hear better.

I am probably like most subjectivists, as I really do not care what the outcomes of db testing might be. I buy components that I can afford and that satisfy my ears as realistic. Certainly some products satisfy the ears of more people, and sometimes these are not the positively reviewed or heavily advertised products. Again it strikes me, at least, that this should not happen in the world that the objectivists see. They see the world as full of greedy charlatans who use advertising to sell expensive items which are no better than much cheaper ones.

Since my occupation is as a professor and scientist, some among the advocates of double blind might question my commitment to science. My experience with same/different double blind experiments suggest to me a flawed methodology. A double blind multiple component design, especially with a hypothesis that some people are better able to hear a difference, would be more pleasing to me, but even here, I do not think anyone would buy on the basis of such experiments.

To use Atkinson’s phrase, I am generally happy and don’t care if the objectivists think I am right. I suspect they have to have all of us say they are right before they can be happy. Well tough luck, guys. I cannot imagine anything more boring than consistent findings of no difference among wires and components, when I know that to be untrue. Oh, and I have ordered additional Intelligent Chips. My, I am a delusional fool!
tbg
Tvad, I find your last post preposterous. You state that you only care about closing your eyes and getting lost in the notes and about tapping your toes to the rhythm. If that's what our hobby is about then anyone with an iPod on the subway is an audiophile. I have a friend who regularly gets down like that with his Bose Wave player. I even suspect the people in the deeply tinted window SUV with the fancy wheels that was absolutely booming "urban youth music" were lost in the music and tapping their toes. I should have rolled down my window and said hello to my audiophile brothers.

Your espousal of unfettered radical subjectivism is precisely where a large part of our hobby has gone wrong. By dismissing any pretense of fidelity to the source material you have made all systems effectively equal because someone somewhere will think any system sounds great. Beyond what makes someone feel good there actually are objective standards for judging whether a piece of equipment faithfully reproduces an input signal. We can argue about exactly what these standards are, but it would be foolish to ignore them.

BTW, if getting lost/toe tapping is a high priority, a bottle of good Scotch is a more effective system upgrade than any cable change.
Onhwy61, I don't believe one has to obsess over the importance of double blind tests and statistical analysis of equipment to be an audiophile. But, in the interest of not arguing the issue, I'll accept that by your standards I may not be an audiophile. Know what? It doesn't matter.

I enjoy listening to music on my system. I think it sounds pretty darn good. I assembled it by discussing components with other audiophiles, reading reviews (and posts), and by purchasing the pieces and listening for myself as I added, subtracted and tweaked the system into its present form. I based no decision solely on cost. If something lower cost sounded better to me, I kept it. If not, I sold it and kept the more expensive gear. But, I never spent a minute blidfolded (although I spent many minutes with my eyes closed) nor did I spend hours pouring over technical measurements...especially when it came to wire. I simply trusted my ears.

I never ignore specs or measurements of electronics or loudspeakers, but I don't consider specs to be the end-all in determining whether to purchase the gear. Further, I don't consider specs to be the end-all in determining what constitutes "audiophile" gear. I have no doubt that there are plenty of mid-fi components that measure substantially better than my VAC amp, and I'm certain my VAC amp has far worse specs than the uber-spec'd digital amps I've auditioned thus far. But, I enjoy the sound of the VAC more. I've never read a single test measurement for any of the modified CD players I've owned, and I'm reasonably certain none are published (post modification). That hasn't stopped me from accepting that they sound better than their stock cousins.

Listening to music and feeling good (or feeling some emotion) isn't just a high priority, it's what it's ALL about as far as I'm concerned. If that's not criteria for entry into the audiophile club, I'll happily not belong.
Tvad writes =If that's not criteria for entry into the audiophile club, I'll happily not belong.=

"I would never join any club that would have me as a member"
-Groucho Marx
Onhwy61, your comments read like a racist expressing his disdain for the infusion of impurities into the master plan of audiophilia. I don't if you intended them to be so exclusive, but they struck me that way. It would be fair enough to say that you do a hobby one way, and allow others to walk their own paths. But if I'm hearing you accurately, then I'll personally opt for a scotch with my music. Of course, not while I'm out bumpin' with the brothers in my SUV.