Speaker wire is it science or psychology

Jostler3 - you are dragging me off point into an irrelevancy. I am not interested in whose ***** is bigger, just trying to make a simple point that you are failing to comprehend. What kind of scientist are you if you have no powers of observation? I am NOT claiming Nyq'ies maths are wrong. I am NOT claiming that push-pull amps do not show lower measured distortion that single-ended. I am NOT claiming that transistor amps do not have lower measured distortion than valves. What I am saying is that it is notable that most significant scientific breakthroughs in this area in the last 40 to 50 years have seemed to many of us to take us down unmusical paths, and that recently people have appreciated this to the extent that you can put together a system based on the vinyl LP, single-ended valve amplification, and high sensitivity and high impedence speakers that is at least as truthful to the music as any CD, SS amp, inefficient low impedence speaker system. I am a scientist and believe in the scientific method. But it dismays me when scientists have such blind faith in the theories they understand as to deny experienced phenomena - such as Stevenmj's engineer friend who believes all speaker cables sound the same. That is the topic of this thread. My point is that we have seen this closed-minded approach from scientists for years - ie. "digital interconnects cannot sound different". I am suggesting their closed-minded views based on a meagre understanding of what goes on in an audio system are not worth listening to. Their universe is too small a place to have the debate in. Though your ego drives you to prove I am ignorant and you are a scientific guru, and so you have chosen to misinterpret my post to your satisfaction - I do not care. I do not propose to feed your ego any further by continuing to explain my first post to you, or respond to your irrelevant challenges.

Redkiwi: Either you've now stated your position more clearly, or I misunderstood the point you were trying to make earlier (or, probably, a little of both). From my perspective, of course, it's not the scientists who are closed-minded. They'll consider any evidence available. It's the subjectivists who seem closed-minded, because they refuse to consider any evidence that conflicts with their own observations (including, particularly, evidence suggesting that their own observations may be unreliable).

Don't worry stevemj this thread will be going strong when the magizine arives but it may be hard to find my posts because in 3-4 weeks there is likely to be 3000 responses.
Best of luck on your quest for the truth, Tim

Redkiwi - You seem to be saying that you and others prefer things that have demonstrably higher distortion. Maybe higher distortion lends a more "musical" quality for some listners. It's not all that farfetched.

Stevemj, I prefer a sound that is closer to what I hear at live events. As it happens, I have so far needed valve amplification (but not necessarily single-ended), and good cables (amongst other things your engineer mate (and my engineer mates too) would laugh at) to get that. Whether these items are preserving something that solid state and standard cables do not, or whether they are adding an artificial version is a matter of opinion. But the acid test is our ears (and perhaps our souls), not the test instruments that you apparently believe in. If my system was adding distortions then I would presumably hear it as a persistent coloration. I can tell you I abhor persistent colorations as they irritate me intensely over time, and therefore reduce my enjoyment of the music. But the distortions introduced by solid state (excepting a few hideously expensive products) and by bad cables are observed by me as persistent and highly unmusical. So in my version of reality, it is my dislike of the distortions introduced by solid state and bad cables that are the reason why I prefer valves and good cables. Your suggestion that it might be the reverse suggests an unwarranted faith in the measurement tools in common use. Just to add a caveat, I am not a rampant valve nut, I have never been happy with any valve preamp I have heard, but just do not get on with solid state power amps. So here's the point Stevemj, try listening with your soul (to the music and how it moves you) with some different cables. Since this is the objective (ie. the effect of music on your soul), why accept the opinion of your engineer mate when you can hear the real deal for yourself. I am sure the science helps someone designing gear (but as stated above, it may hinder as well). But, if you are like me and the issue is selecting what to buy, put all the scientific claims to one side, and just listen. Your experience may be different from mine, but I have found the scientific claims (not just from the manufacturer, but also from the engineer mates) have little, if any, correlation with what works. This must frustrate those that would prefer to talk about the science behind the equipment rather than the music experience, but count me out of that pointless exercise.