Robert: My comments about the thread being interrupted were not geared towards your customers "coming to your rescue", but more-so as a general comment pertaining to a specific group of Audiogon regulars that dislike my "brutish" methods of communications i.e. those that have cried foul in the past about asking manufacturers, distributors, dealers, etc.. for pertinent facts, asking them to support their statements and / or asking for honesty and disclosure of affiliations.
As far as being a "watchdog", i call 'em as i see 'em. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has webbed feet, etc... it's probably a duck. Just because i'm not shy about pointing the duck out to others and telling them what it is and how to identify it by its' characteristics, it doesn't make me a "watchdog". Having said that, if what i post helps someone to avoid making costly errors or explains why certain situations ( sonic or otherwise ) have arisen surrounding "duck-like" products, so be it. People can call me whatever it is they want to. You don't have to like me to understand or even respect the information and / or perspective that i provide.
With that in mind, i have NO idea of what your cables are like. I have third party information on them that is far less than technical in nature and that's all. Neither your website nor your posts here have given me or anyone else anything to go on. As such, i'm not attacking your product so much as i'm commenting on the lack of information available concerning your products and your unwillingness to provide even a few lines of information after 4 or 5 posts and thousands of words.
While it's quite possible i may be a great fan of your products once i had the chance to really get to know them ( technically and sonically ), the only way that i could do that would be to buy them, use them, disect them and analyze them for myself. Given that i'm not buying any more cabling from someone that won't tell me what it is that they are selling ( i've been ripped off enough as it is ) and i'm not about to "gut" someone else's property that might be kind enough to let me borrow them, the chances of that happening are slim to none. The bottom line is that more info specifically about the products themselves with less background about the company could result in more potential sales.
PS... I don't have a "kingdom", nor am i a king. I am a working class pauper that can't afford your hundreds of dollars per meter products, so please take pity on me and throw me some of the scraps from your table. Maybe then i'll have some idea of the "flavours" that you and a few others make mention of since you won't even describe what it is on the table to begin with.
Psychic: I'm glad that you guys had an enjoyable and educational get together. These types of situations can be fun, but they can also be misleading. That is, unless certain precautions are taken to try and keep the playing field level. I'm NOT talking about DBT's ( Double Blind Listening Test's ) or anything like that, just similar conditions in terms of all of the gear being allowed to thermally and physically stabilize. This takes time though and most impromptu meetings / listening sessions don't really allow this.
With that in mind, one can get basic ideas about differences in performance and whether or not components interface reasonably well together, but i wouldn't say that such "testing" is all-inclusive in terms of the observed results.
On top of all of that, unless one has some type of baseline to compare things to, it's possible that none of the products being compared are actually "accurate". As such, which one was perceived as being "better" boils down to subjective opinons that are based on personal preferences. We all know how that works. Since there are no reference points to judge things by and even personal preferences change, the only conclusions that can be drawn from such impromptu listening sessions is what one liked at that time with that system in that room. Sometimes that's all that counts i.e. when you're listening in your room with your system and you're familiar with what to expect. Other than that, anybody not in the same situation is listening with a great handicap due to lack of familiarity and expectations. This handicap is exactly why most DBT's provide negative results. Obviously, this is just my opinion and others are certainly open to agree / disagree.
Albert: Certain measurements are "better" with mass-produced gear for certain reasons. That is, mass-producers build cheap components using low grade parts. They "band-aid" their circuitry so that it measures better by relying on inexpensive forms of error correction that introduce further side-effects into the equation. They do this trying to "fix" things, but in effect, make things worse most of the time.
As i've said before, unless you can see the whole picture and understand what the spec's mean and how they were derived, spec's can mean very little.
Having said that, a full array of spec's can tell you quite a bit, if the spec's were properly derived AND one knows how to interpret them. If such were not the case, i wouldn't have known that the Goertz speaker cables were going to "best" all of the others in that test. I knew what i did because the spec's that i read and understood confirmed what my ears had told me several years ago.
In this respect, the spec's are verified by the test results and the test results are verified by the sonics. That is, what you put in is what you get out. It's called measurable accuracy and it achieves this with no form of error correction applied. As such, the margin of error as to what the spec's say and what you actually hear is non-existent. That's why i've said "don't blame the cables" if you don't like what you hear. While you can shoot the messenger, that doesn't change the message. Sean
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As far as being a "watchdog", i call 'em as i see 'em. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has webbed feet, etc... it's probably a duck. Just because i'm not shy about pointing the duck out to others and telling them what it is and how to identify it by its' characteristics, it doesn't make me a "watchdog". Having said that, if what i post helps someone to avoid making costly errors or explains why certain situations ( sonic or otherwise ) have arisen surrounding "duck-like" products, so be it. People can call me whatever it is they want to. You don't have to like me to understand or even respect the information and / or perspective that i provide.
With that in mind, i have NO idea of what your cables are like. I have third party information on them that is far less than technical in nature and that's all. Neither your website nor your posts here have given me or anyone else anything to go on. As such, i'm not attacking your product so much as i'm commenting on the lack of information available concerning your products and your unwillingness to provide even a few lines of information after 4 or 5 posts and thousands of words.
While it's quite possible i may be a great fan of your products once i had the chance to really get to know them ( technically and sonically ), the only way that i could do that would be to buy them, use them, disect them and analyze them for myself. Given that i'm not buying any more cabling from someone that won't tell me what it is that they are selling ( i've been ripped off enough as it is ) and i'm not about to "gut" someone else's property that might be kind enough to let me borrow them, the chances of that happening are slim to none. The bottom line is that more info specifically about the products themselves with less background about the company could result in more potential sales.
PS... I don't have a "kingdom", nor am i a king. I am a working class pauper that can't afford your hundreds of dollars per meter products, so please take pity on me and throw me some of the scraps from your table. Maybe then i'll have some idea of the "flavours" that you and a few others make mention of since you won't even describe what it is on the table to begin with.
Psychic: I'm glad that you guys had an enjoyable and educational get together. These types of situations can be fun, but they can also be misleading. That is, unless certain precautions are taken to try and keep the playing field level. I'm NOT talking about DBT's ( Double Blind Listening Test's ) or anything like that, just similar conditions in terms of all of the gear being allowed to thermally and physically stabilize. This takes time though and most impromptu meetings / listening sessions don't really allow this.
With that in mind, one can get basic ideas about differences in performance and whether or not components interface reasonably well together, but i wouldn't say that such "testing" is all-inclusive in terms of the observed results.
On top of all of that, unless one has some type of baseline to compare things to, it's possible that none of the products being compared are actually "accurate". As such, which one was perceived as being "better" boils down to subjective opinons that are based on personal preferences. We all know how that works. Since there are no reference points to judge things by and even personal preferences change, the only conclusions that can be drawn from such impromptu listening sessions is what one liked at that time with that system in that room. Sometimes that's all that counts i.e. when you're listening in your room with your system and you're familiar with what to expect. Other than that, anybody not in the same situation is listening with a great handicap due to lack of familiarity and expectations. This handicap is exactly why most DBT's provide negative results. Obviously, this is just my opinion and others are certainly open to agree / disagree.
Albert: Certain measurements are "better" with mass-produced gear for certain reasons. That is, mass-producers build cheap components using low grade parts. They "band-aid" their circuitry so that it measures better by relying on inexpensive forms of error correction that introduce further side-effects into the equation. They do this trying to "fix" things, but in effect, make things worse most of the time.
As i've said before, unless you can see the whole picture and understand what the spec's mean and how they were derived, spec's can mean very little.
Having said that, a full array of spec's can tell you quite a bit, if the spec's were properly derived AND one knows how to interpret them. If such were not the case, i wouldn't have known that the Goertz speaker cables were going to "best" all of the others in that test. I knew what i did because the spec's that i read and understood confirmed what my ears had told me several years ago.
In this respect, the spec's are verified by the test results and the test results are verified by the sonics. That is, what you put in is what you get out. It's called measurable accuracy and it achieves this with no form of error correction applied. As such, the margin of error as to what the spec's say and what you actually hear is non-existent. That's why i've said "don't blame the cables" if you don't like what you hear. While you can shoot the messenger, that doesn't change the message. Sean
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