Help me build a fine PC sound system

My PC goes via squeezebox into an Esoteric upconverter/clock into a berkeley dac direct to my amps. It sounds great. But, better than vinyl?

I still have not found that but will keep listening.

This guy knows USB can be better than vinyl:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95464.msg960567#msg960567

You should at least upgrade that SB to a Touch. Much lower jitter. Then you can probably sell the Esoteric. However, you need to make more changes than this to your system to sound better than vinyl IMO. Even a Touch will not get you there. This is because the clock of the digital source is the most important factor, not the DAC or whether the track is 192 or 96 or 44.1.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve, I’m sorry I misspelled your companies name. Just a typo.. not poor intent. I’ll note that for the future.

Everyone tries what they can on what level they can justify or afford.

In the under a few hundred < $400 - $500 is all I’ve been able to check out, so that is where my claims extend. I’ll stand by what I said with those parameters now in place.

Decent converters? So IYO, where do decent conversion interfaces begin in price? $1K, $2K?

Using that word alone says the Lynx AES 16E is at least a ‘decent’ converter/interface/DAC.

At least.

Albeit, a secondary buy of just 5 or 700 on the heels of a previous likewise buy keeps some items from being auditioned by many.

What I’ve seen at your website does confuse me. Last time I looked there several items were being offered for various purposes. Converters, clocks, along with upgrades for just about each one. So even though some base conversion devices exist there… if optimally outfitted as your own site seems to suggest they could be, some approach a couple grand or more…. which… IMHO… makes them a far more thoughtful and precarious purchase, than merely an impulse buy, and further complicates the entire matter.

I believe you said yourself in a thread on another site that a particular device of yours outperformed the Lynx AES 16 PCI Express card…. Albeit, following my purchase of a Lynx. In spite of how that comment was delivered and/or how I received it, I did go look at your devices anyhow as I certainly am one who does nnot know everything about everything. That was when I felt one of your gizmos done properly, was a $2K or so investment. And that was the cost for a non full bandwidth device.

…and it’s cost then was around $800. Making it then several hundred dollars more than the Lynx AES 16E.

Then too are the cost for cables to connect up these added clocks, power supplies for those powered items.

The Lynx or Hiface EVO, either plug right in, or need just a USB cord.

Given that, well, we’re talking apples and oranges right?

I’m not taking you to task here Steve, but let’s not forget, it is merely a claim made by the maker/seller that promises rewards of higher performance, and not a general unbiased consensus.

All I know is what I hear.. as does anyone else, for that is the litmus test.. What we hear… no matter how it measures… and for many I will presume, cost is a consideration.

So too, is the ever lengthening list of devices one must or can or might want to try in their own rig, first hand. It’s expensive and time consuming.

And then there’s this… what if… just think what if… you get a gizmo… and following it’s insertion, you are just ecstatic about it’s performance…. All the “hey this is better” appeals… acclaims… assertions… are as fallow as fallen and withered grain. That person doesn’t care a bit then about any other notions of something else being better… well, definitely not right then.

Let’s not forget either…. Exactly what is better? What’s better truly mean?

Studio recording engineer better? Live performance in a club better? On stage outdoors better? Better meaning more natural? More resolution? More bass?

It can mean anything almost. It’s that subjective. When I’m dealing with subjectivity, price tells me where I can and might tred, and where I will not.

I’ll let my ears tell me what I do like and do not.

We all have our own little worlds we live in, no matter how grandiose, or meager. They are all miniscule and temporal. The aim I think is to enjoy the world you live in as best you can… and all my comments… assertions… advice… thoughts, and so forth point to exactly that, based upon my experience.

I’ve little doubt devices selling for a couple grand might out perform those of lesser cost. It even makes sense. But for right at $500 for the Lynx AES 16E…. I’m pretty happy…

The AES 16 allows for another clock to be added on as well… but guess what Lynx rep said to me about adding on aftermarket upscale clocks …….

He said, “Unless you are adding on (I forget the name) which costs several thousands of dollars, I’d not add one. Even then with this high dollar aftermarket clock, the gain is going to be quite marginal.” Indicating to me numbers like 10% or 15% improvements.

Perhaps Steve, you should have said something sooner… or others should have said something sooner on that topic. I asked. A lot. But no one chimed in and mentioned a similarly priced item which you make as a solution.

In fact the overwhelming input unsaid, but seen in the virtual systems and signatures of posters was the Lynx device… not an Empirical Audio unit.

Why? I don’t know. Price probably. Add on’s perhaps. Bandwidth? Beats me. Time will come maybe… and I’ll give Empirical Audio a shot. But for now, I’m good. there and have other more important and larger, fish to fry elsewhere in my audio world, and my own life in general.

What would interest me in this thread of mine, is a device which totally eliminates the need for a outboard DAC. Something that can improve performace by subtraction… get rid of DACs, preamps… not bust the bank and control/feed some nice active speakers.

Better still IMHO, would be such a unit for my main system which could feed and control vol on amp (s) and be capable of utilizing the whole of the bandwidth… or the like and not be made of too much can’taffordium.

Jim wrote:
"Decent converters? So IYO, where do decent conversion interfaces begin in price? $1K, $2K?"

Probably $800.00 starting point for a USB converter. It's a lot like turntables. You can always buy a cheap one and a less expensive cartridge and get good results. Spectacular results from a turntable and phono stage requires $10K at least, more like $20K. Likewise, about $5-6K for a USB DAC. $1500 for USB converter.

"The Lynx or Hiface EVO, either plug right in, or need just a USB cord.

Given that, well, we’re talking apples and oranges right?"

The Off-Ramp 4 replaces HiFace or EVO and uses virtually identical drivers. Same thing. It comes with a USB cable. Better clocks, power and other features adds cost. Performance costs.

"The AES 16 allows for another clock to be added on as well… but guess what Lynx rep said to me about adding on aftermarket upscale clocks …….

He said, “Unless you are adding on (I forget the name) which costs several thousands of dollars, I’d not add one. Even then with this high dollar aftermarket clock, the gain is going to be quite marginal.” Indicating to me numbers like 10% or 15% improvements."

I agree, adding an expensive work-clock to drive the Lynx is a poor proposition. However, many use the Pace-Car to RECLOCK all kinds of sources, including the Lynx. This is different than just supplying a word-clock with lower jitter to help the clock in the Lynx. The digital signal passes through the Pace-Car and the Pace-Car provides a synchronizing clock to the Lynx. Reclocking establishes a totally new master clock in the Pace-Car. The Lynx clock jitter then becomes unimportant. Pace-Car starts at $1200.00. People are still using it after 7 years on the market, so it must make a significant difference. You can make the clock as good as you can afford. Just like upgrading a turntable cartridge.

"Perhaps Steve, you should have said something sooner… or others should have said something sooner on that topic. I asked. A lot. But no one chimed in and mentioned a similarly priced item which you make as a solution."

Very few of my customers read this forum.

"What would interest me in this thread of mine, is a device which totally eliminates the need for a outboard DAC. Something that can improve performace by subtraction… get rid of DACs, preamps… not bust the bank and control/feed some nice active speakers."

You cannot eliminate the outboard DAC, it is always needed. A high-performance DAC with a built-in preamp function that beats all other preamps is the ticket IMO.

The things that compromise digital system sound quality, in order of importance are:

1) master clock jitter
2) D/A digital filtering distortion
3) D/A active output stage compression
4) Volume control circuit noise and distortion

This is why I addressed all of these in my USB DAC design. Again, to get this kind of performance you are looking at $4k-6K. Performance does not come cheap.

Happy hunting.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

From someone who's owned Steve's product, along with ridiculously expensive cabling and tried a half dozen DACs in the $1k to $3k price range, the RDac is ridiculously good. For $500. And you don't need a converter with a super duper clock upgrade to get great sound from it.

Not knocking Steve's gear, I did honestly like the Offramp Turbo-3. I'm also glad I got rid of it before he switched to async and the prices bottomed out.

I've never tried a $5k USB DAC by the way Steve, but you'd probably need a $30-$40k system just to do it justice. And I'm not sure you'd grin as much as you would by gambling on a $500 DAC that seems to overperform. The rest of my stuff isn't low-fi but definitely not $30-$40k either.

USB DACs don't suck, by the way Cerrot. They sound just fine.