Idler wheel drive vs Belt

Dear Jean: As I already told you, I have to try it. When somebody impulse any project with the excitement and emotion that you have it's time to " heard " it not to argue.

Go a head !.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Hey, I have a Micro Seiki 1500FVG and Linn LP-12 and a Teac TN-400 and a Thorens 125 and a few others. Hell, they all sound good to me.

Any of the various drive systems..belt, direct drive, and idler can work well is designed correctly and executed correctly with excellent isolation and resonance control. Main reason belt drive tables have proved so popular with high end is, in my thoughts, that the cost of entry to the belt drive high end market is much less than the cost of entry into the high end direct drive or idler wheel market.

Imagine how much money Panasonic (owned Technics Radio and Broadcasting Division which produced such gems as the sp10, epa100/500, and a few other very neat things) put into R/D and and then plant and equipment to produce such a fine machine; ditto for the Kenwood L07D or the top Denon professional units. Pioneer also made some cost no object direct drives, too.

Now, I like my Scheu Premier and the Acoustic Signature was an alternate and I went with the Scheu for the dual arm plinth for a modest uplift. I am under no illusion that this is simply a well designed table made out of acrylic. The bearing is fairly straightforward to manufacture once the design is finalized; that does not take millions of bucks to devlop...same with the acrylic platter and plinth and armboards. The motor is sourced from Maxxon and some electronics work is done by Scheu. This is not terribly complicated from an engineering and manufacturing perspective.

Now try to envision the plant and equipment and start up costs for the old SP10 and the SL1200 and its legion of variants. Who can afford to do that anymore with such a small market?

That is the reason we no longer have high quality direct drive and idler wheel turntables; manufacturing costs do not support production to such a small market.

Belt drive is the least expensive way to get good performance and the inherent limitations of belt drive are tackled by other solutions. Some use mass; some like DPS use other techniques to arrive at the same destination.

Well-said all! The real reason, following up on C123666, idler-wheel was dropped was because belt-drive simply made more economic sense even back then: larger profits. Anyone who has handled even the cheaper Garrard SP25s has to stand in awe of all the machinery and development necessary to produce it. The search for profits led to increasingly poor record players and increasingly poor pressings (those who were living in the vinyl world at that time must remember the increasingly poor pressings, skipping, warps as the '70s drew to a close), and then the industry offered to save us from the "inferior" format with Compact Disc (Perfect Sound Forever). I remember being a reporter at that time, being forced - in spite of owning a Rega Planar 3 - to go out and report on the "amazing new format". I had suggested at the time we investigate the claim of "Perfect Sound" more closely in a feature, and the feature editor, who had just bought a compact disc player, put the kibbosh on it, and put great energy into publishing free publicity for the untested claims of the very corporations who disseminated these claims and profited from them! Just another instance of how Western science is being subsumed and corrupted by market (and other) forces. As one writer put it: "Shall Science become a mere tool of the marketplace? Where was truth? Where was insight? Where was knowledge?" Anyway, great to read an open and intelligent discussion of the merits of other systems than simple belt-drives, a good sign! And Raul, so that's what your saying meant! If I put so much energy into my project, it's because of being treated like a leper on the subject of the Lenco for more than 10 years by people who knew and understood much less than I did on the subject of vinyl-spinning: one day last year, I decided "Enough", and put it out there to the test. I find it amazing that so many did and are giving it a chance! There are, after all, positive aspects of the internet, my faith in my fellow man is being restored! Vive la Empirical Science and Logical Thought!

I have a question for Jean.

Now that we've come to the situation where various sytems of drive have been used and accomplished significant performance levels, what do you think is the best one?

We now have a market which will bear any amount of engineering and production cost, because of the market for very expensive turntables. There is no need to worry about how much it costs now, for the high end units.

An idler wheel system of excellent construction and engineering could easily now be made without regard to expense. Direct drives and belt drives of very high retail price are being sold to audiophiles. In fact, as regards idler wheel tables, I think Shindo Labs and Lorricraft are even re-making the old Garrard designs.

In the "ultimate" expression of these drive systems, with all "the bugs" ironed out of most of them, what do you think will be the best performing turntable? At the highest levels, will the idler wheel compete with the best direct drive(Rockport) and the best belt drives(Walker, et al)? With all things considered.

What are your technical reasons for your answer?

This is an important question, and I'd be very interested in the answer from someone with much idler wheel experience.

Please bear in mind that these top level turntables have gone to an extreme extent themselves to ensure total speed stability, with no expense spared, and the designers are well aware of stylus drag effects. They are not affected by the usual things that may apply to cheap belt-drive or cheap direct-drive applications.