How to Achieve Great Imaging & Soundstage


Hey 'Goners,

While my primary system is in flux, I'm starting to think about revamping my second system, which employs monitor sized speakers in a small (16x16) living room. I love audible holigraphy!!! My desire is to put together a system that creates great 3D imaging and soundstage. While this thread may use my current setup as an example - its real intent is to get advice for/from all interested agoners about the most important factors required to achieve great imaging and soundstage: speakers, electronics, tweaks, room acoustics...

My current system consists of a Classe CAP-101 integrated attached to Triangle Titus 202 speakers using AQ Slate cables. The CD players vary from an Arcam FMJ CD23 to a Cary CD308, using Kimber PBJ IC's. The room is 16x16 and organized on the diaganol, with the speakers on either side of a loveseat (a necessary 'no-no' due to space constraints). The ceiling is doube-high and tilted down to the rear. I currently don't get much imaging at all, even if I remove the loveseat. The sound is overall good, though a bit bright, and I think the upper-end of the Titus speakers is a bit edgy and unrestrained - probably needs a shift in system synergy. It's a carpeted room with stuffed furniture, but the walls are bare and hard and there is a picture window with a fabric shade.

So what is most important: componentry or setup? While in San Francisco last week I audioned Totem Mani-2 and Model 1 speakers, as well as B&W N805's (all driven by a Rotel CDP, Aragon preamp, and ??? SS amp). The latter two speakers provided very good soundstage and imaging, but the Mani-2 wasn't as good. I note that the N805 appeared to get good imaging partly from its high frequency emphasis, and I was wondering whether the Model 1's achieved good imaging due to their small size. Is small size a big boon towards good imaging??? I'm also wondering how much difference the electronics could have been making. Even though imaging fell short in 1/3 speakers, how much are electronics a necessary key ingrediant?

So the questions I want to pose here are:

1) WHAT IS YOUR HIERCHIAL APPROACH TO ACHIEVING EXCELLENT IMAGING AND SOUNDSTAGE?

2) IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR GEAR THAT YOU WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND TO ACHIEVE THIS END?

I'll be attending CES in January, and will be listening for the best in this realm. But they only show current gear - and older, used components are a resource not to be ignored.

Thanks All.
peter_s
My experiences with stage & image have varied all over the map; the variables being electronics, cabling & tweaks, the only un-changing components being my speakers & their placement. In other words, I've realized everything from a totally flat presentation to totally holographic, all with the same speakers in their exact same locations.
Stage/image are not my primary objectives when setting up & tweaking a rig, they come as a bonus.
As Tubegroover so adeptly explains:
"accurate tonal balance and timbral accuracy leading toward long term enjoyment and minimized listener fatigue"
are indeed my primary system setup objectives. To that end I've sometimes been a bit disappointed with the resulting stage/image, while at other times the stage has been fantastic but some of the other aforementioned attributes were otherwise lacking. I found that I preferred tonality & ease of listening issues over stage/image; others may lean in the opposite direction. Whatever sound that you prefer is what's right for you, just as my own preferences are of course what's right for me.
Touching upon Pete's 2nd question: the specific setup which gave me such a holographic presentation was (I'll do my best here to remember it) ... relatively modest compared to the system that I'm presently using.
---it was---
ReVox B795 TT + Signet MK10 mc cart
EAD Ultradisc 2000 CDP
Golden Tube SEP-2 pre
McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe amp
Synergistic Research Resolution Reference interconnects & Master Control Center active shielding with Synergistic Reference AC cord
MIT MH750+ speaker cable
classic vintage Belle Klipsch speaks
Chang Lightspeed 3200 + 9900 amp line conditioners
JPS Digital AC (on CDP)
XLO Type 10a AC cord (on pre)
Custom Power Model 11 AC cord (on amp)

That combo was magical regarding stage/image, but was somewhat lacking in tonality & was also much too sibilant.
Well said Tubegroover! Perhaps you read between the lines in my initial post, but some of those speakers I auditioned did leave me concerned about listener fatigue as a trade-off for imaging. Speakers that are midrange dominant and congested are not worth the price of imaging.

Can anyone pinpoint the characteristics of a speaker that makes it image well (size, a specific tonal balance, ???).

Also, even though equipment is a personal taste issue, are there any that really stand out?
Peter, I really didn't want to get into specifics on speakers. I'm not sure if you are unhappy with what you have or whether it is something that could be improved with placement and ancillaries. I am not familiar with the Titus speakers, your room or set-up so any further advice on specific speakers that do what you ask might seem presumptuous on my part. I am using Merlin VSM-M, which I love. They do it all but their presentation may or may not be to your liking. The only speaker system I can imagine replacing them would be a dipole but it won’t be anytime soon.

The point is that FIRST, if you haven't already, is experiment with placement in as many ways as possible within the constraints of the room. Too many people jump around without knowing exactly where the problem lies which might otherwise be remedied by working out the details of placement. As Bob Bundas notes, imaging is a bonus for some and mandatory for others. I really believe that it should come as a bonus and not become a goal in and of itself.

I have both great imaging/soundstaging and tonal balance/timbral accuracy. It is the result of the system and placement, not just the speakers although they are exceptional in this regard. Musical tastes also come into play. I have spent the past 2 years getting this system to where it is based on my listening preferences. This has involved numerous amplifiers, speaker placement, wire changes, room treatments and numerous other tweeks. It is still a work in progress. It takes time and patience. Upgrading gear was made to compliment the speakers once I came to the conclusion that they were staying. I knew that though they were very challenging initially, contrary to what others were saying, it was only because of the room and the ancillaries. The intrinsic character was recognized early on. This you must find out. Are the speakers doing everthing important to you, do they have a characteristic that is irritating is something missing or do they have a fundamental rightness to your ears?

I don’t want to get on a soapbox here but I feel when reading some posts on this site that many involved in this hobby are looking for their system to “sound” a certain way while missing the goal of realizing long term musical satisfaction which can only come by connecting to the artistry of the performance. This is reproduced audio at its best. We will all have different opinions of what that is but a musically involving system should be easily recognizable when heard. Getting to that point involves real effort, luck, trial and error, advice but first and foremost, a GOOD ROOM, IMHO. This site is full of individuals that can guide one trying to achieve this. I am speaking to you with the understanding that you are an audiophile that has first and primarily, a love of music. The audiophile community is divided into two camps, in my view, the sound freaks and those that want to capture the realness of music through an audio system. Just some food for thought.
Audio Physic speakers are known for their soundstaging ability, they disappear completelely when positioned correctly. I bought the Virgo II's largely for their imaging ability. ONly problem is that you have to put them out into the center of the room for them to sound their best, they typically require a dedicated listening room.
Two words: point source. From my listening experiences, the closer a driver comes to initiating sound from a point source, the better the imaging. The more the speakers will disappear.
The second major issue is cabinet size/ difraction/ resonance. A small cabinet will usually have less resonance. A narrow cabinet like Audio Physic is very important.
Third may be tube electronics giving better depth. Something to do with phase shift.
Of course speaker placement, far out from front wall with nothing between them.