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Tweeter type and brightness

I presently own Martin Logan Odysseys that I purchased new in 2005. I've enjoyed them very much but I'm having to replace the power supply board in one of them as I did in the other one about 5 yrs ago and I'm thinking that it may be time to look into speakers using more recent technology.

I auditioned several new sets at Sound Advice including the Monitor Audio silver 2, 6, 8 and 10 plus a small pair of ML's. I thought all of them were very good. Additionally, I bought a pair of Jamo Concert Eights several months ago that were fantastic for my type music which is mostly solo guitar. I regret selling them but at least I learned how good quality bookshelf speakers can be.

Anyway, I've read in several posts that metal dome tweeters have a tendency toward exaggerated or tinny brightness which can be very uncomfortable for me because of a hearing issue that I have. I want to avoid this and am asking for advice regarding this experience of others and what tweeter construction, if any, is generally best to avoid what I call screechiness.

I've been told that the technologies that best avoid this are ribbon tweeters or domes of some softer material than the various metals used in many of them. In one of the forums here on Audiogon this subject was discussed in some detail and at least several participants seemed to minimize the relationship between tweeter design and this problem. They suggested that more likely potential causes would be such things as room acoustics, interconnect quality, rake, crossover problems, etc.

I agree that each of these considerations could lend to the issue but I'm looking for a good starting point to at least minimize the contribution of the speaker design to this problem.

I've heard the gold series Monitor Audio speakers which do incorporate ribbons and they seem to work perfectly with my music but they, like the larger new ESL's are substantially outside my current budget limits. I'm currently using some borrowed temporary speakers while I'm waiting for the new circuit board so I can sell my Odysseys. In the meantime I would appreciate any advice I could use to help with an approach to selecting a speaker best suited to my needs. My upstream equipment includes Shanling solid state CD player, CAL DAC and Rogue Audio Sphinx 100W hybrid amp.
128x128broadstone
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
In previous forums I've commented on my hearing issues and questioned whether a good equalizer would help with my sensitivity to upper frequencies. Although I didn't comment on it, though, I've always felt that frequencies beyond audible range added, through some mechanics of harmonics I guess, to what I believe is referred to as timbre. I still think that to be the case so using an equalizer to merely minimize the offending frequencies would also diminish overall sound quality through elimination of frequencies beyond audible limits. For that reason I've abandoned this approach. The article referred to by Royj, (the world above 20kHz) even though I had difficulty understanding much of it, seems to address what I'm referring to.

All of that being said, although I will look into issues that relate to my CD player and DAC as suggested by Mapman, I'm still concentrating on tweeter choices as at least one element toward potential improvement. I didn't have the problems I've discussed when I was using Magnepan or Focal speakers but, then, that was when my hearing was 15+ years younger. BTW, I borrowed a pair of small inexpensive floor standing Infinity speakers for temporary use while my Odysseys are out of commission. Although overall sound quality is only O.K., they are quite easy to listen to with very little high frequency harshness, and the reproduction of violin and cello is quite realistic and pleasing.

My current thinking, based on my internet research, is that most quality tweeters are capable well above 20kHz regardless of design so there remains the question of why some speakers (and maybe it's not the tweeters at all) sound harsh in the upper frequencies.

ablang
165 posts
 
A speaker's frequency response in the presence range can contribute to brightness and fatigue. Two soft-dome speakers that I've owned (and that are widely referred to as warm) I found very fatiguing in the treble and soon sold: the Spendor S3/5 (check out the Stereophile response graph), and though these were much more enjoyable, the Dynaudio Focus 110. You might look for a speaker with the "Gundry dip" in the presence range.

My two favorite speakers I've owned both have metal tweeters and zero listening fatigue: Vandersteen 2CE Sig II and Vandie 1Ci, which I'm happily listening to right now.
bifwynne
2,069 posts
 
Broadstone .... your question is reasonable but difficult to answer because there are so many variables involved. Ergo the various suggestions above.

What I'm about to say may be a bit heretical, but if you like your ML ESLs, why not fix them and keep them. I don't recall reading that you are experiencing compatibility issues with your MLs and your amp. And to start fiddling with separate components ... oiy. You may take one step forward and two steps back.

As to your concern about metal domed tweeters, I've read many posts that go both ways. Someone mentioned the Revel Salons and Studios. These speakers use beryllium dome tweeters. Same re the higher-end Focals, Paradigms and Ushers. Beryllium is a very light and brittle metal that has a higher resonant frequency than other types of metal tweeters, like aluminum and titanium.

But even these exotics can sound bad if there is system incompatibility with the gear and the room. That's why I suggested that if you're happy, consider sticking with what you have. Just a cheaper and easy alternative option to think about.

Cheers.
douglas_schroeder
1,824 posts
 
The entire system setup from power cabling to components largely dictates the sonic characteristics of the tweeter, as well as other drivers. Each tweeter technology has its own inherent characteristics in terms of dispersion and dynamics, but it is too broad a sweeping generalization to count out certain ones simply based on tweeter cone material.

I do very much enjoy the performance of true ribbon tweets. A panel speaker will disperse the soundstage wider generally and the treble will be more atmospheric, less localized. You will have a sharper imaging and tighter localization within the soundstage with a dynamic tweeter.

As to the nuances of the tweeter you will have to work with cabling to adjust to preference.
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
277 posts
 
Bifwynne, your suggestion makes a lot of sense and is a direction that I'm seriously starting to lean toward. I've enjoyed the Odysseys for many years and what seems to have happened is that when I thought my equipment was failing it was actually a gradual age related hearing loss causing my problem. I agree with you that I may have been a bit hasty looking for ways to abandon the Odysseys and will repair them even if I decide to sell them.

I'm not that well versed in current design or conversant with much of the modern technical language but am not a newcomer to the hobby. I assembled my first monaural Heathkit amp and built the "Sweet Sixteen" speaker array when I was a teenager about 50 years ago. I also turned my parents' attic into an infinite woofer baffle because high volume and big bass were the kings in those early days of hi fi. Now, detail is what good listening is about for me and this seems in many ways associated with the upper frequencies. Because my hearing begins dropping off just below 5kHz I've experienced loss in this detail and I was finally fitted with hearing aids which, btw, I only use when listening to music.

To give you all an idea of how far I had gone to resolve my problem, a couple of months ago I listened to a pair of Canalis Anima's which are fantastic and unbelievably detailed but a bit expensive to experiment with. I then purchased used Jamo Concert Eights in an attempt to duplicate the Animas and it was a close comparison but some of the high frequency harshness was still there at higher volumes. Trying to identify which speakers best suited my needs I installed a speaker switcher in order to A/B between the Odysseys and the Concert Eights. I found that for critical music listening at lower volumes the Jamos shined but for TV and DVD the Odysseys were best. After I bought hearing aids, though, I started hearing more detail from the MLs and sold the Jamos.

Anyway, until the new circuit boards arrive so I can put the ML's back in service and can work on approaches to keeping them, I'm suspending pursuit of potential fixes based on choosing alternative speakers. I'll probably be asking for more advice during this process and will report on how this goes.
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