Telarc 1812 revisited

This one is a forgotten classic and features spoken commentary explaining how the actual ordinance used was set up and recorded. I suppose people actually cared about such things in their recordings back in this one's day (1958 I believe). Vinyl was the actual target medium to show of back in 1958 with the MLP. It's also included in the MLP CD box set, volume 1, which is the copy I own.

Dear Mapman: I own two samples ( I bought it second hand. ) of that recording, very nice whole recording.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dougdeacon: Well there are at least two gentlemans that really cares about: J.Carr and T.wynsc. and you can read their posts.

Now, I would like and appreciated that more than put in evidence that " vain soliloquoy " ( that IMHO does not apport nothing to the whole subject ( as the Dover posts. ) ) and due to your recognized knowledge level try to post something that could be useful about, you are way better than all that.

In the other side you are following the thread, well try to follow it in a more positive sense.

Waiting for your contribution.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Hi Raul: Thanks for the copious (grin) amount of writing. Your posts were sort of useful, in the sense that they reveal where your assumptions are not grounded in reality.

It seems that you believe that tracking distortion is essentially linear - that a cartridge that can successfully track very heavily modulated groove passages will have lower distortion on less heavily cut groove passages than a cartridge with lower tracking limits.

This is an erroneous assumption. Tracking ability is not linear, the transition between tracking and mistracking is usually quite abrupt. The result is that a cartridge that has higher tracking limits can nonetheless have higher tracking distortion on normally modulated groove passages than a cartridge with lower ultimate tracking limits.

Let me provide some numbers to illustrate this. Shortly after the Lyra Delos was introduced, in 2010 the German magazine Stereoplay conducted a multi-way review and measurement test of 5 different cartridges. These were: Benz Micro Wood SL, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Ortofon Cadenza Red, Kuzma KC2 (made by ZYX), and Lyra Delos.

The measurements were of output voltage, coil impedance and inductance, tracking ability, distortion, low-frequency resonance (in a 13-gram tonearm), cartridge weight, and compliance.

For the purposes of this discussion, we can ignore everything except tracking ability and distortion.

If Raul's view is correct, there should be a direct correlation between tracking ability and distortion.

Let's see what Stereoplay's measurements actually say.

Benz Micro Wood SL: Tracking abilities: 100um, distortion: 0.067%
Ortofon Cadenza Blue: Tracking abilities: 80um, distortion: 0.075%
Ortofon Cadenza Red: Tracking abilities: 100um, distortion: 0.09%
Kuzma KC2: Tracking abilities: 70um, distortion: 0.06%
Lyra Delos: Tracking abilities: 80um, distortion: 0.058%

And we don't see any such correlation between tracking ability and distortion. The Kuzma KC2 has the lowest tracking limits of the group, but shows the second-smallest distortion performance after the Delos (which itself has lower tracking limits then the Cadenza Red or Benz Micro Wood SL).

If we look at the two models from the same manufacturer, the cheaper Ortofon Cadenza Red has better tracking ability than the dearer Blue, but the overall distortion reverts to the order of the pricing. And if anyone claims that higher tracking would normally result in lower distortion, but happened to be canceled out by other factors in the individual cartridge designs, well, that is also a valid observation, because it tells us that the relation between tracking ability and distortion is weak enough to be buried (or reversed) by other design factors.

In another test years earlier, Stereoplay compared the Helikon SL to the standard-output Helikon, two models which obviously had much in common with each other.

Lyra Helikon SL: Tracking abilities: 70um, distortion: 0.09%
Lyra Helikon: Tracking abilities: 80um, distortion: 0.10%

Despite showing lower tracking limits, the Helikon SL shows less distortion, while the better-tracking standard-output Helikon has higher distortion. Admittedly the differences are small, but again we don't see a correlation between improved tracking ability and reduced distortion.

hth, jonathan carr

Dear Jcarr: +++++ " This is an erroneous assumption.... " ++++

could be and could be not.

Stereoplay measurements can be " perfect" ones or not to " perfect " and in the other side we have several kind of " distortions " that wee normally don't see it through measure tests, what I mean: we are not measuring the right kind of distortions or the tools to emasure can't do it.

I posted at least an example where two similar stylus assembly in the same cartridge performs with different tracking abilities and sounds " different " too: tiny differences.

I don't have gold ears, I'm a " normal " listener but I'm traines by my self to be aware of some kind of distortions at different links in the system audio chain and I can detect some kind of " sound " that you can't because you don't know what to look for when I know because my self training. That's why I asked you : what to look for when you posted:

+++++
the suspension's fulcrum point will shift position, depending on what the frequency being reproduced is. This won't necessarily sound bad, and some cartridges are designed like this. But it certainly isn't accurate. " ++++

non-accuarte, the question is: what have I to hear to know that exist that unaccuracy in the cartridge design?. I receive no answer about.

JC, you have and live in a highly desired position been a cartridge designer because you can make easyly some tests to confirm or not what we are discussing here ( remember that this discussion is not if you or me are right. I don't know you but what I'm looking is to improve my knowledge level. ):

you can take a Delos sample with that 80 um on traking hability and modified two other Delos samples to have one with 60um and other with 100um an make different kind of tests that can corelate traking ability with distortions and of course through listening tests try to be aware to find out if it at normal recording velocities you can hear tiny differences or no one at all.

I think that you not only are in that privileged position to do it but you have the right knowledge level, skills and tools to do it along the " ideal " LP's tracks to do it.

This cartridge tracking habilities audio subject seems to me similar as what could be happen in a car in specific to its suspension/tires and different suspension quality designs and how different cars performs on the road. You can be sure that exist differences because that car tracking habilities on demanding roads as in not so demanding ones.
As with a car what we want in a cartridge stylus tip is that always stay in touch with the grooves/road even at microscopic level, if not common sense tell me ( certainly not to you. ) distortions are generated.

I think that you have the right " light " to really put a real light down this audio subject through first hand tests. If you decided to do it not only me but the audio community will appreciated.

Stereoplay tests put some uncertainly " light " but IMHO not a definitive and absolute answer.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.