What sounds best integrated or separates?

I like the idea of a GOOD integrated amp that takes a good amp and pre subsystem and integrates them with care into the single box with attention to not having one section compromise the other. Same true even if phono section tossed in as well.

Why?

Because the integration has been performed for you by highly trained professionals who know what they are doing and do things that way for a reason. That can save you a lot of heartaches trying to find a good match.

I also like the idea of a good stereo power amp that treates the left and right channel in a similar manner within a single package.

Or if someone you trust has achieved a good integration between a particular amp and pre, then that is a good start as well.

If you go the separates route, be prepared to have to experiment and change things along the way to a good match unless you really know what you are doing. To an audiphil, the journey in this case may have as much appeal as the result. But if you're goal is to get to the best sound possible as fast as possible, take care.

I have tried the integrated route, and Mapman makes a very strong case for integrateds and he is 100% right. On the other hand, I've not been able to find an integrated that can perform at the level of separates in my system, although at a higher cost and system complexity. Maybe the VAC Phi Beta is in that category on an integrated without compromise, but not cheap. I would also think that an integrated with a passive attenuator should not sound to different, maybe better, than the same amp with a separate passive, but I don't think you could the same quality from a built in active pre section in an integrated.

Pubul57,

The choice of integrated amps that might possibly play in the same league with your system are surely few and far between, especially if we're talking tube amplification.

But how long did it take you to arrive where you are and how much was invested to get where you are now?

Also, the VAC Phi Beta is a stunning piece.

Anyone with any concept of how well it might drive my Ohm 5's which present a somewhat difficult load and love to suck power and current?

I haven't convinced my self that there is a tube amp out there that could do the job even as well as what I already have, but I'm very interested in being shown that I'm wrong.

Camera analogy, read on !

I can think of a dozen amp / preamp / interconnects combinations that just cannot match the quality of a fine integrated, be it tubes or SS.

The chances for a ''mis-integrated'' systems are great.

Also to consider, the trial and error cost of finding that perfect combination.

I do think separates do sound better, but only the better-matched systems.

I have owned both separates and integrateds of considerable cost in each category.

There was a time where I just analyzed sounds to find sonic flaws, which led me to re-question my separate component choices every time. Talk about being on the audiophilia merry-go-round.

Then I started listening to integrateds. These machines are no longer the ''poor man's audiophile amps'' of 20 years ago.

Factor in the hassle-free factor, and the fact that a professionnal designer actually decided on ALL of the choices inside - it's not a bad deal if you asked me.

A friend of mine who is as taken in PHOTOGRAPHY as others are in high-end audio told me this:

I had asked him why, with all of his experience and knowledge, he was using the AUTOMATIC PROGRAM MODE (think integrated amps as an equivalent in high end audio) instead of going full manual on his settings (think separates) to get that ''perfect'' photo (..or sound..)

In essence, I was really asking him why he was using the ''beginners'' automatic setting instead of the ''more serious'' and professionnal manual settings so that he could get exactly the image (sound) he wanted.

His reply: ''Are you kidding ? With the advancements in camera technology, the computer in this camera is perfectly integrated to adjust exposure, shutter speed, white balance, aperture and so on....for a photographer to BEAT THIS and to find BETTER settings takes one hell of a photographer. And besides, let's suppose I do find better settings, by the time i get there the moment's gone....and the photo opportunity might be lost. So, for 90% of the time, the auto pilot is good enough and I enjoy the photos immensely, even though sometimes I know I could have probably done better if I picked the settings myself. But, is it really worth the trouble to the point of missing the moment?

Sorry if this seems a strech, but this is exactly how I feel about integrateds. A top notch integrated has it's ''settings'' chosen by an electro-acoustic professionnal. Always subjective of course, but it's damned good most of the time.

Pretty hard challenge to beat if you asked me, with our Lego sets of amps, preamps and interconnects.

Just in case your'e wondering, the camera is a relatively inexpensive Nikon D-40 single reflex digital that retails for around $ 600.00 or so. Including the stock zoom lens.

Just a few years ago, this level of quality was available, according to some experts, only in cameras that sold around....$ 4,000.00

Separates are better. But not always. Only speaking from personnal experience, your mileage could vary.
Cheers all !