2. amps-preamps
  3. 1355905155

how much of a difference should equipment make?

I spent the last few months looking for a good sounding 2 channel setup and this is what I ended up with:

McIntosh C50 Preamp
McIntosh MC275 Amp (VI)
SF Cremona M
Audioquest King Cobra XLR
Audioquest Carbon USB
Audioquest Rockefeller SW

Let me just get this out of the way and say it up front.. While the speakers (and their placement in my room) seemed to make a huge difference, the amp, preamp, and cables do not seem to make any discernable difference to me or my wife.

I feel like I have purchased the C50/MC275 due to a combination of the integrated DAC, aesthetics, heritage, level of support, and resale value.

We compared several options at home and in high end audio shops.. For example, in one store, I got to listen to the Cremona M's through a pair of MC1.2kw+C2300+AyreQB9 and then immediately following that, the C50 paired with a single MC275. I really wanted to hear a difference, but nothing. In the same store, I was also able to listen to a Music Fidelity M6 and luxman 550AX connected to the same speakers.

I brought home a demo of a luxman 550AX integrated and an MA6600 McIntosh integrated and did several days of A/B testing with the Cremona M's and we could not detect a difference at all. I tried to make sure that decibel levels were matched by playing a test tone and using an SPL meter.

I am using Jriver with ASIO with a variety of music off of hdtracks.. the music is being sent to the DAC in the C50 via audioquest carbon USB cable in bit perfect asynchronous mode.

I checked the MC275 manual and McIntosh recommends 12AWG wire. When I had a pair of audioquest type 4 connected (which was only 16 AWG), we did detect a small improvement when moving to the 12 gauge Rockeller wires. I did not test any cheaper speaker wire. This was the only time that I heard something other than the speakers make an audible difference.

I was also able to compare a peachtree iDAC and Ayre DAC at my home and I did not detect much (if any) difference between the DAC built in to the C50. I do have the latest firmware.

I heard huge differences when cross shopping speakers and doing A/B tests in stores.. for example, B&W 802D seemed to have much more 'oomph' on the low end, but lacked some midrange and high vocal clarity. It felt a bit like voices were not 'tight' compared to the Sonus Faber line. I listened to a pair of SF Elipsa and they sounded similar to the Cremona M but a bit more 'full'. As if the depth of the sound stage increased and also the bass had a bit more impact.

Although I do not hear any difference in preamp/amp/cabling, it does not mean that a difference does not exist. I am not trying to insult anyone here.. it may just be that the combinations of equipment that I have tried are still somehow 'lacking'.

My questions are as follows....:

1) Is it normal to not hear much (or any??) difference when changing out preamps or amps assuming the components in question are within similar specs?

2) Has anyone else purchased relatively expensive amp/preamp combinations even when you believe the components are not making a difference in the sound quality?

3) Placement and angle of my speakers in my room make almost as much of a difference as the brand and model of the speaker - at least to me. Anyone else have this experience?

4) What am I doing wrong that is leading to not hearing a difference?

I do not believe my ears are at fault.. My wife and friends were with me throughout most of my testing and they came to the same conclusions.

In any event, my setup at home sounds great to me and rivals (again, to my ear) most everything I have heard in audio stores.

Thanks,
ecsrun
brf
1,699 posts
 
If you are new to high fidelity reproduction then what you are experiencing is normal. It takes time to train and develop your hearing.

Just like top chefs and wine connoisseurs, they had to develop an acute and discernable palette which take time and training. Developing a higher level of hearing is no different than developing a high level palette, or refining any of our other senses.
mechans
2,999 posts
 
I would say that your experience is fairly atypical but Brf's explanation makes sense and perhaps you have yet to develop critical listening skills especially when it comes to certain sounds that are important to you.
2- Not in my experience.
3-Speaker placement is critical and can have a major impact on the sound you hear.
You are not doing anything wrong, just enjoy your music. Perhaps you will develop the dreaded audiophile ear and want better/different systems every two weeks. You have chosen your set up well. In the event you should ever want to change -as you noted -the resale on these items (well cared for) is excellent. It is a good to great set up as a first system for many it is a destination rig, Consider yourself fortunate.
elizabeth
6,726 posts
 
I would say for someone new to high end, the experience seems to be just fine.
I personally believe audiophiles exaggerate subtle details all the time. So a tiny diifference,like from a cable is called 'jaw dropping' etc.
Yes about blowing money on amp upgrades just because I had the money.
I bought a $5K amp to replace a great under $2K amp, just because I had the money burning a hole in my pocket.

Speakers are the biggest things which have different sound. And as the op noted, even changing the angles can have a huge impact on the sound.

After you get to know your 'sound' I think you may begin to be able to hear little things better.
Changing the whole system at one time is hard, as you lose your 'reference'.
One odd thing I note is how easy it is to get used to better sound, almost instantly. And only going back to the old sound can I say wow that sucked.

As for buying for looks.. no problem. A LOT of higher end gear is built to look good as well as work good.
mapman's avatar
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mapman
15,679 posts
 
1) Is it normal to not hear much (or any??) difference when changing out preamps or amps assuming the components in question are within similar specs?

Yes. Most will probably not detect a clear difference. THe ear has to adapt and be trained over time to detect subtle differences. Some might never hear much difference of any concern.

2) Has anyone else purchased relatively expensive amp/preamp combinations even when you believe the components are not making a difference in the sound quality?

I'm sure many have but I have not. I only spend more when I can see a clear reason to. How to know? That is a product of technical knowledge that can be accumulated over time. I do listen to good or expensive setups whenever possible in order to help train my ears and determine what represents good reference sound for me.

3) Placement and angle of my speakers in my room make almost as much of a difference as the brand and model of the speaker - at least to me. Anyone else have this experience?

Yes, yes, and yes. This is a major factor in determining the sound you hear and is one of teh most inexpensive and worthwhile tweaks one can apply with diligence.

4) What am I doing wrong that is leading to not hearing a difference?

Assuming you have good/normal hearing, probably nothing. I suspect this is something that may come over time. The other possibility is that the differences between the things you are comparing are subtle and not as clear as other comparisons might be. Try comparing a low power SS or tube amp versus a high power SS amp 80 watts or more. You should hear a difference. Try a tube DAC versus a SS or roll tubes in the tube DAC. I would expect most with trained ears will hear some difference.

The other possibility is that you hear the differences but they are not significant enough to matter to you. Nothing wrong with that. I suspect that over time though most will converge on some preferred sound though others might still be enjoyable to some extent.
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