Yet another Grounding Question-Separate 'Earth'


I emailed this question to Nsgarch since he gave advice on another thread respecting the separate grounding of a dedicated subpanel, but at the risk of making some of you read yet another grounding question, I decided to post it as well. Here goes:


My electrician has installed a separate subpanel for the audio system which is 'upstream' even of the main breaker panel in the house.
It will have several dedicated lines, each with a 20 amp breaker (Square D) running separate grounds to Hubbell Hospital Grade Outlets. I was concerned about the potential 'difference' among these separate lines- one will support mid-hi-freq. amps, others, the subwoofer amps, and a third, the lower powered front-end equipment (preamp, phono stage and TT- no digital). I do have one of those Granite Audio thingies which permits me to 'star ground' everything to a single point in the system, FWIW.
But, and here's the really critical question- my electrician has proposed a pair of separate ground rods about 10' from the main ground for the rest of the house electrical system, and in his view, the audio system subpanel would be grounded just to these new ground rods, not connected, by ground or anything else, to the rest of the house. In one of Nsgarch's postings on this subject, he indicated that there could be a differential in the two different panel groundings which could put current to the 'neutral' and create a shock risk. As I understood the advice, it was to make sure that the audio subpanel shares the same 'earth' ground as the rest of the house.
Could you comment?

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128x128whart
If the ground wire is only connected to a ground rod or an underground metal or copper water pipe, the circuit breaker usually will not trip if there is a short to ground. There has to be a connection to the neutral from the ground to trip the breaker. Power from the hot wire goes to ground and then to the neutral to trip a breaker in a ground fault. A sub panel does not have the neutral and the ground connected (bonded) together, the main panel does. If there was a ground fault or a short circuit on one of the circuits in the sub panel and there was two seperate grounding systems for each panel this is what will happen. The power will go to the sub panel ground rod and try to go through the earth and make a connection to the main panel ground rod which is connected to the neutral so the breaker will trip. You can not use the earth as a grounding conductor. The main neutral wire from the street makes the breaker trip and not the ground. Thats the reason that all grounds have to be connected together so the fault can go to the neutral and trip the breaker.
Whart, what is the problem (power, safety or audible) that you are trying to cure? Why do you need a separate panel? Maybe there is a simpler way.

>>By using separate or multiple grounds, the possibility exists that a short circuit may be routed away from the breaker, causing a dangerous situation.<< Only the hot side of the circut is fed through the breaker, so multiple paths back to the panel are immaterial. The current has already been through the breaker and cannot be routed away. The ground wire itself is a separate path, parallel to the neutral.

I do agree that not connecting new grounds to the exsiting panel or connecting the subpanel neutral to ground anywhere but the main panel are REALLY BAD IDEAS.

Let's talk about the underlying problem and try not to create new ones.



I hadn't been down to the basement to look at his work- here's what we have right now: a Square D subpanel is feeding off the main panel, fed by a metal insulated cable that appears to be close to an inch in diameter. No further work has been done (yet)- he will return later this week. I suspect that when he said he wired this panel in, 'upstream' of the existing box, he really meant upstream of all the existing breakers, perhaps, save for the main power breaker on the incoming service.
The ground wire out of the main box is a massive thing, looks like its multistrand, also probably an inch thick, wrapped in a light grey, rubber-type insulator.

I'll make sure I discuss these postings with him. He has done good work for us in the past, and is pretty meticulous. Perhaps he didn't mean that the ground to the subpanel would be totally isolated, and that the panel wouldn't also grounded to the main house system, but I sure heard it that way.
As to problems I'm trying to solve, well...

The room in which the hi-fi exists is already overcrowded with other equipment for the video system. My preference would be to install the audio only system in another room, but at least for now, that's not possible.
I'm pretty fanatical about the noise level in the system, and have tried myriad ways so far to reduce the noise level at idle. (As mentioned in another post, an industry guy who I respect for his technical knowledge heard the system a couple weeks ago, and scoffed at my complaint that the system was noisy).
In any event, the video system is powered by its own dedicated 240v stepdown transformer. That in turn handles the power for the various 'audio for video' amps and also supplies the juice to a big Richard Grey box which powers the projector, line doubler, and small signal video stuff.

I want the audio system totally isolated from that, and I'm moving the audio equipment (other than the speakers) to another area of the room --partly to get it away from my ears, and partly because the compressor for the Air Line arm can then be stashed in its own little room, isolated from the listening environment.

In doing this, I just want to make sure I have the best possible AC feeding the system. The current demands made by the system are modest. While I am currently using Shunyata Hydras, I'd also like to hook up without them, and see what the difference is. At present, the other outlets in the room are not 'dedicated' and are part of the standard electrical system that was installed in the room about 5-6 years ago, when the upper floors of the house were substantially renovated.
ps- house has 200 amp service, all upgraded about 5-6 years ago when the house was massively upgraded by the prior owner.
Whart,
>>"house has 200 amp service."<<
>>>>>>

I assume the 200 amp main breaker shares the same panel enclosure as the branch circuit breakers. Is that correct?
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>>"fed by a metal insulated cable that appears to be close to an inch in diameter."<<
>>>>>>>>>>

From your description the wiring assembly is MC cable. 1" in diameter, probably 4 #6awg THHN conductors. Maybe 5 conductors if the MC is Hospital Grade. I am just assuming the sub panel will be a 120/240 volt panel. 2 Hot conductors, 1 neutral conductor and 1 equipment grounding conductor. Wire ampacity rating of 60 amps.
Is that correct?
At the main electrical panel, the electrician will install a 2pole 60 amp breaker for overcurrent/short circuit protection for the new sub panel feeder and sub panel bus bars. The 2 conductors of the MC cable, usually black and red, intended for the 2 Hot conductors will connect to the 2pole 60A breaker. The white (neutral) and green (equipment grounding conductor) will both connect to the neutral/ground bar. At the sub panel the neutral conductor will connect to the isolated neutral bar and the equipment grounding conductor to a separate ground bar bonded to the panel enclosure.

What type of branch circuit wiring will the electrician be installing? What brand of receptacles are you going to use?
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EMI noise.
Just curious why are you not just installing another isolation transformer with electrostatic shielding and a new panel to feed your audio equipment branch circuits. Usually a sub panel is installed because of a lack of spare breaker spaces in the main electrical panel or the audio branch circuits conductor are very long and ground loop problems exist.