O-10 (and Rok) - I have been away from this board for some time again, and have returned this morning to read what has passed here the last couple of weeks with great sadness. I feel that I must respond to some of the comments made here. I pick three examples:
"not only has Frogman been misinterpreting every thing I say, but he's been rewriting my posts, and coming up with something completely different from what I said originally."
"I consider Frogman a highly educated and intelligent person, who has made great contributions to this thread; however, quite recently I seem to be speaking French and he only understands English, or vice versa."
""I consider this ignorance BLISS", and I hope this closes that door permanently".
With all due respect, O-10 - you are the one who not only does not, but willfully refuses to understand. This is not a case of you speaking one language and Frogman speaking another. It is a case of he speaks the language (of music), and you do not. No one is re-writing your posts - your ignorance is proudly proclaimed, and there for all to see who do indeed speak the language of music.
You will no doubt respond by saying that this is your thread, which it is. But you must understand that no one with any knowledge of the language of music whatsoever is going to listen to you seriously anymore, now that it has been established that you are unwilling to learn. You truly do not know the depth of your own ignorance, even while proclaiming and glorying in it.
Some of you also clearly do not understand the tragedy that this is for us professional musicians, to see someone that clearly thinks they love music so much, yet is also so willfully blind and ignorant about it. You clearly have no idea how disrespectful this is, and I do not mean to us musicians, but to the music itself. Many would go so far to say that you do not really love music at all, let alone as much as you think you do - how could you if you have so little respect and understanding for the very basics of it. They might say that while may you take great pleasure in it, you not only do not, but cannot love it.
It is of course your choice to stay on your island of ignorant bliss if you wish, but wonder no longer why no one with any true love and understanding of music will listen to you any longer, when you are unwilling to listen to such a great teacher as Frogman or even attempt to really understand anything about what you are trying to speak of. At least Rok, as infuriating as he can be, has made some effort at understanding and real dialogue. I have seen no real effort on your part, and will reluctantly and very sadly bow out of this thread as well. Reading these last exchanges unfortunately reminded me of what Rex Stout's great detective Nero Wolfe once said - "you can't put sense into a fool's brain - I've tried."
Rok - your question about Beethoven's last piano sonata and jazz. Frogman I would say is basically correct in his response. Clearly, Beethoven had no thought whatsoever of "jazz" in his mind when writing the sonata. But many decades later, young student piano players learning and studying his music took certain aspects of it, and translated them into the jazz idiom. It is quite absurd to say that one can only truly understand a genre if it is invented in one's own country. These things are never so black and white. As Frogman insists, European music had much more influence overall on "jazz" than African drums did. Rhythm is only one aspect, though sometimes the most important one. After all, music is the creating of sound within time. There are no borders to it. It is a universal language, one that anyone can learn and understand, if they have the love for it, and give it the time and respect it deserves.
I have enjoyed this thread, and repeat Frogman's commendations to O-10 for starting it. Most of the best posts ever made in these forums are on it. I have learned a great deal, and have been exposed to some wonderful music that I was not familiar with before. And despite my frustrations expressed above, I honestly do wish O-10 and Rok and everyone else here well.
