'The idea that Stereo Repuke, "proved" ANYTHING, is simply H I L A R I O U S!'
well, if the golden ears could not distinquish between amps with a price differental of tens of thousands of dollars, what conclusion do you draw? other than amusement. |
p.t. Barnum nailed it!!!!! |
long ago, in a different age, when men who were truth seekers ruled the world of audio, it was said that the perfect Amp would be a straight piece of wire with gain. Think about the im[plications of that statement. What does it say about WIRE? |
'As long as YOU believe that; it's ALL that matters!'
The creation of this idea is what got some charlatan into the audio snake oil hall of fame |
I think you do protest toooooo much! |
but, it is sort of sad that a pioneer in the home audio field can be ridiculed on an so-called audiophile site. Too bad he is not here to defend himself. Julian was into this when it was a hobby for real. when you ordered kits to build your amps and speaker. Maybe he said all amps sound alike, because, well, maybe they do. what would his motive to lie? but like a lot of things, this has gone from a hobby to big business and finally to a racket.
Your comments and attitude are indicative of the degree to which the snake oil salesmen and con-men and voodoo priests have come to dominate this so-called hobby. I am just thankful I came along when there were honest reseachers that provided the truth. BTW 'stereo repuke.' how cute. |
To Bighead63:
Every one I have read on this site is more informed on high-end audio than I am. And they have the systems to prove it.
So who I am to save anyone or change any minds. But your post implies a desire for only like minded people to post on audiogon. Is that true? |
'I dunno, that wire has no gain? That truth seekers morphed into BS artists? I dunno, what does it say about wire?'
The truth seekers died. It means wire neither adds or takes away from a system, its just there. Of course you understood that when you read it. |
'Just yanking your chain, Rok2id. I could tell you had a sense of humor.'
A sense of humor is essential on this site. :) |
I'm beginning to think there is something to this cable/wire thingy. maybe I have been missing out on something fantastic. Is there a wire that will make my Lsi15's sound like the Wilson MAXX?? Just asking, put those flame throwers back in the arms room. |
To Rodman99999:
'Are you selling any of whatever you're smoking? It MUST be KILLER!'
I don't smoke, and please don't resort to twisting the facts. He said all properly designed solid state amps operating within their operating parameters. Not a very high bar at all.
BTW there is a guy offering 1 million dollars U.S. if YOU or anyone else can tell the difference between solid state amps or wire. Last I heard it was still on the table. Better hurry!! |
Tubegroover
is this your way of saying 'surely you jest!!!' :) |
Agaffer
you stole my thunder :) |
Agaffer
very informative post. I tend to agree with everything you said in your reply. I did look at your system pictures and was wondering if your room is an addition to your home. Very cozy and beautiful area. It looks like something I have been planning to do. I was planning to enclose and extend my patio as a listening room. What are the dimensions of the room? A new room is what I really need to improve my system. I hope your medical treatment makes you completely well. |
Stereo Review proved years ago, that NO so-called golden ear could tell the difference between stereo amplifiers. I think the two used in the test was a multi thousand dollar Krell and a $129 Pioneer receiver from walmart. If you can't hear the differences in amps how,pray tell, can you hear wire. But, if you can, there is some guy offering one million dollars to anyone that can hear wire. One of the gurus at stereophile accepted the challenge but then backed out. He could ended this debate forever!!! what a missed oppourtunity!!. :) anyone need an extra Million?? |
To All True Believers:
Do you think situational awareness and the sense of sight play any part in what we hear or think we hear? In other words if we know what cable is playing and/or can see the cable, does that influence what we hear?
there is an easy way to test this. If another adult lives in your house, just have them change or not change a voodoo cable with lamp cord. Do it everyday or weekly or whatever, for as long as you want. Don't peek:) And compare notes at the end of the test, be it weeks, days or months. You just listen as normal and write down which cable is playing each day. at the end just compare notes. If you get it right, then you can hear cable. If you get it right, say, 70% of the time, you can hear cable, but, it also means 30% of the time you can't tell the difference between lamp cord and voodoo. something to ponder. Which is what I think Agaffer just said. |
To Tubegroover:
'A simple question to you, do you really believe that all amplifiers sound alike?'
I believe all properly designed solid state amps sound alike. I think Hirsch stated it that way also. Tubes amps are a different story. If you like distortion go tube.
'He was the voice of the flat earthers of audio. Even back in those days when I was a music enthusiast, not an audiophile I found most of his reviews useless.'
what an arrogant statement!!! YOU found his reviews useless?? Why? Because he didn't say the nonsense you wanted to hear? Are you saying there is a difference between a music 'enthusiast' and an audiophile? hmmmmm.
'The same bs every month with the same measurements and the same conclusions, what was the point?'
what was he supposed to do? change the measurements? state conclusions based on nothing? I guess he didn't talk enough about soundstage, detail,grain and all the rest of the voodoo agenda.
'Have you ever really listened? You do a lot of pontificating but you really haven't said much about your experience listening.'
I have been listening since my father brought home the 78's off the 'seebergs' and juke boxes. 99% noise and static and clicks and pops, but I listened. I have been listening since 1947. I remember most of the music, none of the equipment. I listened as a member of the high school band, I listened as a memeber of my college concert band. I listen to LPs and 45s and reel to reel and cassettes and now I listen to CDs. I remember the music, the equipment has faded with time.
'but other than what you believe about wire, which many on this site agree with, I'm not too sure these same folks would put themselves in the Hirsh camp concerning amplifiers so long as amp/speaker interface is in line. If he's your guru good for you, stay there and be happy but to me you are a rookie who adds nothing more than entertainment value in your posts. Have a nice day! ;^)'
I mostly only comment on wire. I have a million questions, but no one is interested. I don't really care where most folks put themselves. I know the truth when I hear it and I act on the truth. I think I have stated on several previous post that I was a rookie when it came to high-end audio, or audio in general for that matter. I lay claim to no knowledge about anything. But I hope you weren't trying to insult me bying saying i'm just comic relief. :) If you think i'm comical, I suggest you read 99% of the posts on this site. I know my input is not as weighty as 'what time do you wear', or 'why don't more people like high-end audio?' when I read that title I roll on the floor. :)
But I will admit I was a little surprised at your tone. I thought you were one of the smart ones.
you have a nice day also. |
To Rodman99999
'Are those that can tell you things like what year a grape was grown, in what part of France, and(specifically): what field,'
Now, that is a skill every audiophile should have!!
There are those that have trained their palates, and taste buds, to discern things others cannot. Likewise; Aural Acuity, system refinement/resolution, quality of source materials, listening room/speaker system tuning, familiarity with the sound of live instruments/vocals, in an actual acoustic, and one's attentions/training, vary greatly(if they exist AT ALL).
you can say that again!! Where did you learn all these big words? It took me an hour to get thru your post. Had to look up every word.
I could cite other factors that would impact whether or not one might be able to hear the differences in cables, like one's concrete opinions(thoroughly mixed up, and permanently set), but- I don't want to hear any more loose quotes from Shakespeare. Happy listening!
Who the hell is Shakespeare?? Does he make wire?
happy listening and tasting to you also :) |
'My point rok2id is that I found a redundancy to his commentary that proved to be quite boring over time and I stopped subscribing,.
If the man said all amps sounded the same, why would you expect his commentary to be so diverse. redundant / same there is a connection.
'I believe there are many music enthusiasts that are not audiophiles and many audiophiles that are not really music enthusiasts. An audiophile by general definition might be described as one that is focused on the "sound" of reproduced music.'
I agree. I have said so in previous post. I call them gadget people. I like equipment, but I listen to and for the music. Some attribute every thing they hear to a component, I don't, I praise or blame the cd or the speaker / room thingy.
'I'm saying is that you continuously harp on the same points but I'm not too sure you have had the experience of listening as some on this site have, thats all especially if you think all amplifiers sound the same.'
I have no basis to criticize systems I have not heard. My ideas about wire are system independent. I have never been critical of anyone's system, I admire most of them because they are all more elaborate and beautiful than mine. So, since there is no knowledge or information to be gained on this site, I do tend to harp on the same thing.
I don't understand your point about being able to hear wire SOMETIMES. Why just sometime. If it can be heard, should be always.
'Yada yada about playing in bands, listening to recorded. Many of us have as well. I don't place any value on my experience playing music since I was 10 to the present as having any value on what I hear in reproduced audio. Playing in a band or as a musician is not the way you hear it when you hear as a listener as opposed to participant. Listening not playing (performing) is the benchmark for me.'
I will allow you to restate this. I assume you spoke in haste. It seems as if you are saying musicians don't know how to listen to music. I played as an adult, not age 10. Maybe musicians just know what to listen for. One of the old mags had a feature where they featured systems owned by famous music artist. very, very interesting. No krell:)
'If you are satisfied with what you are hearing thats fine but cut it with the PT Barnum malarky and try a new line, you still have the same audience:)'
I was not aware I have an audience. It was not my intention. If p.t. were alive today, he would be the largest wire manufacturer in the world. hahahahaha And I do respect you and many others on this site. In fact I must say that most of the people I have 'met' here have been outstanding folks. I never get mad or upset. As the General told the sgt maj in 'Good Morning Vietnam" Hell, its only audio. he said radio but the point is the same.
just remember in the future, I have no idea what i'm talking about. So you can all relax.
good listening |
'It took you an hour, to get through my post and you STILL completely missed the point of my comparison? SO- you are BOTH illiterate, and comprehensively challenged?'
I did not miss your point, your so-called comparison was more like a very bad attempt at making an analogy. I am not illiterate. I can read, write and figure!!
'actually involved an OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver(Jan '87 Stereo Review- 'Do All Amps Sound Alike?'),'
Ok,your memory is better than mine. The point is, no one could distinguish them. NO ONE can or HAS done it to this day. So lay off julian and stereo review. NO ONE can do it! Not even you. And this applies to wire also.
'Silly me to think you so cultured, as to realize'
Yes, that was silly of you.
'Sorry, if I used too many multisyllabic words in this post. Grab a dictionary, and I'm certain even you, capable of muddling through it.'
After reading it, muddling does come to mind. And get a dictionary and look up HUMOR, lest I think we are both comprehensively challenged!! |
To Tubegroover:
Why is it that, when I read one of your posts, I feel more stupid than usual. :) You are one of the more thoughtful and knowledgable guys on this site. And you do speak from personal experience. There is no subsitute for that.
I can't speak from exerience about high-end gear. The only components I have ever owned that could possibly be considered high-end were my tape decks and turntable. Nakamichi 700 and Technics 1500 rtr and my thorens 126 with sme and black widow and shure. That was a different era of course. They would be considered junk now. All my amps, preamps, CD players and speakers have been low-fi. So you are correct I have never heard a high-end system.
About my beliefs: WIRE: it's not that I don't believe or won't believe, it's that I cannot believe. No more than I can believe you can turn lead into gold.
Amps? I have not owned enough and no high-end to say, or, at least to be dogmatic about it, BUT I do believe in blind testing. it's as scientific as we can get testing this issue. It seems to my inexperienced mind that all of these issues would be sooooooooooo easy to resolve. Let people DEMONSTRATE that they can hear wire. DEMONSTRATE that they can ID Amps. Could all be over in an afternoon.
"you wouldn't dare come onto a forum like this and say such things. It comes across as somewhat foolish, I'm sorry but this is true."
No need to be sorry. I understand completely. But I do think 'you wouldn't dare' is a little much. Don't you?
"You seem to be a generally nice guy and I DO like your sense of humor but if you really want to get on board here, open up your mind and try to listen to some systems instead of spewing the same old nonsense. Maybe an audio show would be a great place to start; you will also meet some very cordial, knowledgeable folks."
The only thing I spew are facts. I have never typed IMO or IMHO, you see that alot on this site. I would love to hear a high-end system someday. Maybe the next show in Dallas. As for the people being cordial, of that I have no doubt. You and many others here, prove that everyday.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences in your post.
Good listening |
To Rodman99999
"I can tell the difference between Sylvania VT-231s and a TungSol 6SN7GTs, in the driver positions of my Cary monoblocks, simply by the width and depth of the resulting sound stage"
WOW!! this is amazing!! I thought soundstage was 'created' by speaker / speaker position and room interface. You better git yo self down to that patent office, now. And insure them ears while you are at it. |
To Rodman99999:
"Enjoy your mediocrity"
I do. After all, ignorance is Bliss! |
To Frogman
"Rok2id, I encourage you to read Tubegroover's post above carefully and seriously."
I always read his posts with great attention. He always speaks with sense and knowledge. And if he says he hears wire, I believe him. He would not say it if it were not true.
"The hobby is a funny marriage of the emotional (music), and the technical (audio). We tend to want to feel that science has explanations for just about anything. We want to be the masters of out universe. We are far from being masters. Those funny little flesh saucers on the side of your head, and the super-computer it is attached to, is far more sensitive than any tool that science has come up with yet."
I agree completely. When I think about how little the average person knows about how even the most common component operates, I mean the science and technology. People just want to use stuff, not understand all the details. And I am in that camp. I don't really understand CD players. And I am not alone. :) I guess hearing wire is the audio equivalent of 'dark matter'.
"Add to this the fact that the subject at hand (music) is one that deals with human emotion, and is it any wonder that tempers fly?"
I don't think the 'emotion' comes from the love of music or the love of equipment. I shout, all cd player sound the same, all amps sound the same, wire cannot be heard. And notice how different people react. most don't feel it's worth responding, some try to educate the poor lost soul, with respect and understanding. :) Some beg to disagree, and move on. And some go Ballistic. I mean crazy!! Those are the ones worth further study! hahhahahaha It's not about the music, or the equipment!! It's just that some have more invested in their systems than just time and money.
"I encourage you to be less close minded about these folks' experiences; you will learn much as a result, and enjoy music (which you seem to care about) on a much deeper level."
I value their experiences. And I don't think I'm closed minded. I accept all facts. But in the end it's not that important. I wish I had never mentioned wire. Just got a lot of people mad and upset and made me the village idiot of audiogon. Love music more than I do now??? hmmmmmm maybe :)
one other thing, I always have said I have no experience in high-end audio. Meaning I don't own the type of equipment that is common on this site. Hell, I don't even recognize most of the brand names. But I have been involved in audio almost my entire life. Or more precisely, recorded music. That's a more accurate term.
thanks for the post
It's only audio |
To Tubegroover & Frogman:
Is this an exampls of what you mean by learning to listen? I would appreciate your comments. Read the entire exchange.
Thanks
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1306127340 |
