The problem with DACs is that the field continues to evolve rapidly and whatever you choose is likely to depreciate precipitously. Compared to most other component categories, it's hard to choose a DAC for the long haul and have it hold up. Isn't that the gospel truth... |
There are things one knows one knows; those that one knows one doesn't know; but most importantly there are those that one doesn't even know one doesn't know. I have come to be very hesitant to make assumptions when dealing with areas in that last category. Kernelbob, you are obviously not a true audiophile. We fearlessly make decisions for ourselves and provide counsel to others despite the absence of knowledge.... |
This is not happening fast enough... |
Mitch2, an acquaintance (who is in the "industry" and has had a ton of dacs through his system) recently acquired a $200 dac out of China called the WEILIANG DAC5 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-decoder-AK4399-WM8805-Coaxial-optical-input-Assembled-board-DAC9-by-weiliang-/1409397061030) and preferred it to the Metrum. I believe it uses an AKM chip.
Nothing sacred in digital! |
4orreal, I think the Phasure tends to get excluded due to its cumbersome setup requirements. Also, did you see the recent computer audiophile shootout. It was bested by the Killer dac and PBD depending on the listener....
Hifial, I thought you were a Phasure convert. Is it Meitner now? Bruce Brown re-reviewed a current DSD Lampi with Duelund caps (versus the cheap Russians that were in the original unit), and he said its the best DSD he has heard. He has had both the Meitner and Phasure in-house. |
Another ripple in the equation to consider is mechanical grounding. I like Sistrum products but there are others out there to consider as well. Sistrum has a significant effect particularly on speakers, subs, and tubed gear...
Then there is electrical grounding and power conditioning. I find these all impact digital. |
The focus of my system has always been to achieve decays and harmonic structures. Sacrificing things like the ultimate in resolution and bass extension were done to get the 3D magic. That's the shizzle and what's missing from most digital... So I'm not sure what it is about my system that makes the NU significantly outperform the Sylvania. But in my system, relative to the NU, the Sylvania is horribly flat and way too distant. Had I only had the Sylvania and this was used in a multi-DAC shoot out, I doubt I would end up picking the L6 as a top-performer relative to it's competition. Very good point. I am certain Lampi's get dumped by folks who do not do their due diligence. A common theme in audio....:/ |
Thanks for the data Guido. I did not realize that this dac has been out since 2011. Looks as if it uses some older chipsets which is interesting. Like most digital pieces, images of the internals are underwhelming and scorn was heaped on the it by the DIY crowd. The same thing has happened to Lampi.
I have heard various permutations of digital amplification, including ice module-based amps, various parts of the evolution of the Hypex modules, including in Ncore (not the Veritas though) and they're honestly not my cup of tea. I briefly scanned your review, and it looks like you are biased towards digital application given your long-standing relationship with Rowland. Also, it appears as if there's imprinting going on with Matt here given the similarities of your two systems. |
What is the price tag of the Aeris and does it do DSD?
Matt, has your bias shifted towards SS sonics occurred for any particular reason? There is an ocean of difference between Tenor and SS class D.
The real problem with with your current paradigm is you cannot "know" a piece until you live with it for an extended period of time. Things that sound spectacular on first blush often end up in the recycle bin. Ideally, you would have all these dacs on loan for a much longer duration. For that reason, I will circle back in a year and see what dac you own. It may not be the one that "wins" the shootout...:/ |
Matt, Lampi has an aerospace engineer living in NJ who does all the US service (I believe) and you will not find better tech support. I understand your concerns, but in this "economy" nothing is really safe. Hi end audio is a fringe business by definition.
Don't bail on the Lampi without hearing those tubes! I am also interested in hearing all the dacs compared in total and not just the Aeris and Lampi. |
Aeris, Aeris, Aeris!!!
This is too easy to predict. |
Shawbros3, I asked you some questions on your system thread. Would you rather me ask them in private? |
Matt, I would not shirk your due diligence regarding the transport. The transport is as important as the dac (IMO) and you should not bail simply due to extra $ or logistical hassles. Similarly, USB-SPDIF converters have major impact. Steve did offer to send an Offramp and I would accept that offer.
At one point and time, Grannyring proclaimed his modded mini untouchable, until he tried Nugent's Offramp. Steve has an actual pedigree in computers (Intel chip designer) and knows the game better than most. It did not prove to be synergistic with his L4 and thus the move onwards. A Lampi transport would probably have been better. Based on reviews, the Romulus sounds better spinning plastic than via its digital connections which begs other questions.
My only beef with Lampi is they need an updated transport that can process all file types. I myself will be getting the Auralic Aries when it is available.... |
Power all of your digital gear from a Plasmatron 3 from VHAudio.com: That looks kool Steve. Again "ancillary" gear has a major impact on digititis.... |
Hi Agear, a few posts ago, you brought up an interesting technical point... Electrical and mechanical grounding. I looked this up in the Rowland Knowledge base, and here is what I found in the Aeris section.... Guido, I read through that site and was duly impressed by the meticulous detail internally in addition to the chassis work. Most dacs fall short in this area. I am sure its part of the reason why the Aeris sounds good. |
Agear - best quote ever in Audiophile obsession ... "you should not bail simply due to extra $ or logistical hassles." You, sir, are hard core!!! I tip my gold coated LP demagnetizer to you my friend. :) The language may make it seem that way but its really a matter of logic. Steve offered to send you the Offramp. Its easy breezy. Is your OCD fervor wearing off? BTW, my prediction is and has been Aeris. Imprinting is a biological term....:/ |
Matt, the best experimental design would be to blind a non-audiophile listener(s) (preferably your 6 yr old) and cycle through the dacs. You may be surprised by the outcome. For good measure, throw in a cheap chinese variant (Weiliang for example) just to see where things land...:) A few trust friends (one a manufacture and one an end user) have it and the < $200 Weiliang is the equivalent of a few well reviewed, sacred digital cows. |
Very nice. The Meitner and PSAudio should be an interesting comparison.... |
Matt, no need to apologize. I just added the Sixmoons except as intellectual fodder to stimulate further discussion (such as Steve's response). This thread is a treat. Keep trucking... |
My room is NOT the ideal acoustic environment. There are a lot of reflective surfaces and an audible slap echo. At his urging, I am going to broach the idea with my Wife of maybe some subtle acoustic treatments to improve on the room a bit. Don't get me wrong, its not horrific, but it is evident. The system still sounds stunning, but could certainly sound better with some treatments. Since the room is on the bright side, my decision as to synergy and what sounds best in my room are certainly affected by these factors. Amazing how that factors into your decision making. If you remain in your current room, tubes and/or darker sounding SS should be the ticket. I know Steve Nugent made the comment that Rowland has a darker tinge to it, but given the state of things in digital, that is not necessarily a bad thing. I owned the ASR Emitter I blue exclusive (2006 vintage) for a bit, and I enjoyed the darker, slightly bottom heavy sound. |
AGear. I'm not sure why you say that. Because of language like this: At this moment in time, I am STILL enjoying the absolutely beguiling ODSE. It does not have the complexity of the Aeris, nor the masterful recreation of tone and texture that the Aeris is starting to display... Vast black spaces that accurately frame the complexity of a sonic landscape along with accurate tone, and texture. Hmmm. Besides, beguiling is a good word for a dalliance, but not someone you marry. :/ For purely entertainment purposes, I would love to hear a formal comparison of the ODSE, Romulus Signature, and Lampizator L7 but it ain't going to happen. Too bad. I just ordered my single box L7.... |
I fully admit that I am excruciatingly patient when evaluating a component I am too, and while the breakin thing sounds like witchcraft, its real in my experience as well. A lot of ADD audiophiles miss out on good gear due to the lack of patience... |
Most manufacturers of tubed gear don't provide Gucci tubes (unless of course you get a Lampizator L7 which comes with EML 45s standard which are > $500). That's an industry standard that won't change for the needs of neurotic audiophile shootouts. |
I spoke with Merrill and he warned me that "more air is sometimes more smear." That is an astute observation and something I grudgingly admit as a tubeophile. |
06-29-14: Joecasey
To achieve such results can take many months or more of system tuning, exhaustive tube rolling efforts, and finding that magical IC between the line stage and amp. The easiest way for me to destroy a ton of performance that I have achieved in my system is to put in any one of 95% of ICs out there in this link. And smearing is a major issue with cables in this link.
This is precisely the reason I find this thread entertaining but if you really want to find the BEST dac for your system, you need to maximize every dac ability and live with it for a while. Exactimundo. Great minds think alike....:/ 06-06-14: Agear
The real problem with with your current paradigm is you cannot "know" a piece until you live with it for an extended period of time. Things that sound spectacular on first blush often end up in the recycle bin. Ideally, you would have all these dacs on loan for a much longer duration. For that reason, I will circle back in a year and see what dac you own. It may not be the one that "wins" the shootout...:/ |
Very interesting Matt. Not to be perverse, but my only (repeated) suggestion would be to try the Aeris with Steve's Offramp. You would be surprised by how compromised a Mini can be. A lot of what is coming across with the Aeris (particularly in the upper frequencies) may simply be your transport.
I am also itching to her about the Aesthetix unit. In a perfect world, a head to head with the Lampi, ODSE and Aesthetix would have been spectacular. :(
Either way, a stellar performance Matt. Congrats and enjoy. |
07-07-14: Erikminer
@Kana813.. More acoustic are planned.. but it is the living room and I need to be somewhat conscious the aesthetics.. You mean conscious of the wife and her potential homicidal rage...:/ |
I have never bought anything from Steve, but I have spoken with him on several occasions and he is nothing but professional and generous with his time. There are a fair amount of dysfunctional audio companies out there, and his is not one of them...
On another note, I have had several people go back to CDPs from computer audio claiming improved SQ. I wonder what the Esoteric plastic spinner would be like into the Aeris versus your Mini? |
A shootout between in the ODSE and Romulus is in order.... |
Guido, it was more of a generic question regarding CD transport versus computer |
07-20-14: Grannyring
I love trying new gear and playing. Call it a sickness if you want. I think it is an interest and curiosity:-) Whatever you want to tell yourself Bill....:/ |
Tbg, your system page is screwed up Spot welding for circuit boards. Please invent it |
Matt, with the exception of the fuse, the big L7 is fully tricked out. No other tubed dac comes with EML45s stock.
I will be adding a Synergistic quantum fuse when I get my 7 next week. |
some rather acidic commentary over on the Asylum regarding this thread. A thread about a thread! Now that's notoriety!
"Ultimate DAC shootout on Audiogon" |
08-04-14: Guidocorona
Hi AGear, somehow the URL of the AA thread in question did not make it to your post... Mind reposting it? Tried before but failed. You can Google it. I have always found it interesting to observe the little subcultures that develop in various sites. Most seem to look down their noses at their counterparts...:/ |
Matt is still searching: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1407182972&read&3&zzlKetcham&&
I don't blame him. Sounds like an engineering tour de force. |
Matt, I presume the OSDE will be DSD capable soon. Listening to DSD through the L7 is a wonder.... |
Matt, your wife is a problem.....you need to work on that with the same energy and focus as your dac quest..... |
You should view wifey as an integral system component like any other that needs appropriate attention and tweaking like any finicky, esoteric German turntable designed by some physics professor.... |
08-07-14: Bigkidz
Contact me and I will build you a DHT DAC that will blow all these away. Send him your prototype. Ironically, in the world of digital, it is rare for one piece to "blow away" another. |
08-10-14: Mcondon
Reading this thread has been very interesting, but I do wonder whether a Mac Mini, even if upgraded for audio, is an optimal digital source. Also, I have found that there is often an interaction between source and DAC that can makes the combo either much better or much worse than the sum of the parts. and So, this thread may be quite useful for Mac Mini users, but may not be universally applicable. Of course, Matt has made it clear that his views are one man's opinion. But I guess I would be hesitant to conclude that the ODSE is the best DAC...it may just sound best with Matt's particular source. Bingo.... |
08-10-14: Radiohead99
Great thread and some great dacs. But I can't help wondering that the using mac mini is the bottleneck and not doing remotely any justice to these top of the line dacs. It absolutely is and one reason why the ODSE has a distinct advantage with its built-in Offramp. |
I heard the Vitus RD-100 (dac + balanced line stage) while back in MN in a SOTA dedicated room fronted by Rockports, etc. Very good piece. Not as good as the Brinkman table but very good. MSRP is $14,000.
I received my Lampi L7 last Wed and am burning it in. Best digital I have owned or heard to date. Both PCM and DSD are sublime, but DSD reproduction takes it over the top. My previous reference point was the Light Harmonics DaVinci (albeit in a show setting). This is a true conversion experience for me in that I have always felt digital fell short (despite it being my primary medium). Paradoxical I know.
It takes about 30,000 hours to fully burn in, so I will report back then.... |
08-11-14: Erikminer
30,000 hours to break in.. gotta be typo that's more than 3 freakin' years!
Erikminer (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) That was no typo. This dac was designed for a dedicated and chosen few with true zeal and audio endurance to scale this Mount Everest of digital reproduction. |
08-12-14: Joecasey
What's the rest of your system? As you might expect, its formidable: I have a dedicated listening in my parents basement that is approximately 13x 15 x 7 ft. Walls are cinderblock. Floors are concrete with a single shag rug, a wooden chair, and one naked lightbulb. In addition to my L7, I am running an unmodded Pioneer 535 DVD player as a transport, a highly modded Sansui AU-517 integrated that is the envy of my local audio society, and a pair vintage Pioneer CS-911As slung together with home depot grade zip cord and no-name ICs. I like to crank it to 100 dB and above for dedicated listening late at night, but the neighbors will often call the police. I have been told that you can hear from system from blocks away on a still night. This makes me proud and is honestly why I am in the hobby.... |
08-16-14: Paul79
The Totaldac is something else IME. Which unit do you own and what is the rest of your system? Have you considered his server? I too looked at getting one but decided to get a Lampizator instead. |
The best scenario is to move to the basement, give my wife back the office, and get my OWN room. I need to start hinting to the boss a win/win solution... If you can blow out the basement space a little to add length, that would help your cause.... |
Matt, the Lampizator thugs will be at the NY show along with TRL and Mosaic Audio. It will be your chance to "hear" a L7 whatever thats worth.... |
08-25-14: Phasecorrect
Fwiw...my brother in law was in the same dilemma...and spent a boat load on a premium dac ...suffice to say...it was a marginal improvement at best...but he at least got bragging rights out of it...haha Phasecorrect, that's funny. What did he get and what did it replace? I too have experienced nominal changes in digital. I believe one of the reasons why this thread has so much traction is the population of philes in digital purgatory is pretty high and everyone is looking for an out. That being said, my Lampizator L7 being fed DSD (and RB for that matter) via an Auralic Aries is a quantum leap forward for moi....stunning. |
Agear, I never really ever thought that I was in a search, but in the early 1970s with my ARC electronics and Infinity Servostatic 1 speakers, I was very happy for over five years, until I learned of the 1As. Since then I have had 24 different speakers and many amps etc. I no longer would ever say I'm done with my system. You are quite the restless soul Tbg. The question I posed to Matt was more allegorical in nature. 08-27-14: Tbg
My guess is that you will have nothing in your system other than your room in five years. Your guess would be incorrect. Wifey wants to move in 2-3 years so I will have to build a new room. As for the equipment, the dac, power conditioner, a Tripoint Troy (pending), and the Moasaic cabling will most likely all be there. I am still deliberating on amplifiers. I do plan on moving up the food chain with Dale's speakers with the prospect of a larger room so the Illuminations may be gone. I also have my eye on the Trenner speakers from Austria for a second system fronted by the Auralic Aries and a Lampizator of some sort. This is all predicated on God granting me the time to do all this. |
